The following interview is with former Chief and World War II Veteran, John Basque, conducted on August 24, 1992 at his home in Potlotek (Chapel Island) First Nation Community, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. The interview was done with Trudy Sable as part of a larger research project on Maritime baseball history undertaken by Dr. Colin Howell, Professor of History, Saint Mary’s University, Halifax, Nova Scotia. This research was later incorporated into Dr. Howell’s book, “Northern Sandlots: A Social History of Maritime Baseball” published by Fernwood Press in 1995. The archiving of this and other interviews conducted by Dr. Sable was sponsored by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre, Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding through the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Languages Initiatives Program (2018-2021).

JB        There was a Department of Indian Affairs person, three of them came from Eskasoni. And also, there was a guy from (?) came over.  I was in service, myself. 4, 5 years I guess—5 years or something like that.

TS        Is this World War II you were in service?

JB        Yeah. What happened, they come over. We all meet at the roads(?), cause my uncle was there cause they told him they want everybody to be there at one time. And they offered me a job. Well, that job, I told them, “I’ll take the job, but you have to give me a jeep to come home every Friday evening.” “No,” he says, “no, we have to move you down.” I said, “To hell with yous.” I said, “Why should I leave?” They even told me this—they said, “They’ll be no schools here, they’ll be no doctors here helping you. (TS: In Chapel Island) We’re going to dissolve completely.”   

            I said, “You can’t do that.” I said, “A reserve will be a reserve all the time.” I said, “Why the hell did we fight for freedom when we can’t get freedom—you guys coming over to push us around.” I told them, “To hell with yous; I’m not going.” So, a lot of people stopped. Most of the people from the service. The only one was moved from the service here was Checker.

TS        Who moved up there.

JB        But see, he doesn’t understand English as much. He wasn’t overseas; he was wounded(? Difficult to hear this sentence). When he come back, they were poor, his mother was poor, and they had to move to Eskasoni. As I heard that, I went too. I found out there was a lot of people had moved to Eskasoni. They promised them they’ll get a new house as soon as they get there. People living in tents for two years outside in the winter time. I told those guys too, I said, “I’m not taking that.”

TS        Did they do anything to you?

JB        They couldn’t cut off anything, I told them they can’t.

TS        They didn’t have anything.

JB        I told them, I know it cause I was in service and I know I met the people that run the Department of Indian Affairs who were in service with me, yeah? So, they told me they can’t do a damn thing with me. So, that was it. We didn’t go. A whole bunch of us didn’t go.

TS        Oh really? A lot of people didn’t go?

JB        A lot of people. What I was looking for.

TS        Smart move on your part.

JB        Yeah. I got it from people from West coast, eh?

TS        People, what? Who had been centralized there?

JB        Yeah.

TS        Oh, you mean you’d heard stories already?

JB        Yeah, heard the story of what’s going on. They moved them there to a certain place. I even got a letter…I was a chief for 14 years over here.

TS        Oh, that’s right

JB        I got a letter one time, I don’t know what happened to it. They moved Indian people, six families from Peterborough, and they took them to Cook Lake and they just dumped them there. Three women freeze to death.

TS        Are you serious?

JB        I had that in a book. I even showed it to the cops when they started pushing us around, huh? I showed them what happened.

TS        Did they actually push you around?

JB:        Yeah, that cop (inaudible) pushing us around; they think they own the whole world.

TS        Cause they had orders to move you up and out and get you up to Eskasoni?

JB        Yeah. They can’t do it. They even come over one day to meet them (in) certain place. We met them at my father’s place.

TS        Max Basque?

JB        No, James Basque. He said, “Boys,” he says, “All you guys from overseas,” he says, “I want yous to return your cards for liquor.” Liquor Board cards. Some of them scared; they give it to him. I didn’t give it to him. He said, “Why you don’t wanna give me yours?” I said, “I’ll give it to you; give my money back first. I paid for it.” I says, “If you don’t pay me, you’re not getting it.” So, he told me, he says, “If I catch you in liquor store in St. Peters and bringing it down here on reserve, I’ll put you in jail.” I said, “You’ll have to catch me first.” So, they didn’t catch me.

TS        Why didn’t they want you to buy liquor?

JB        Well at that time, you can’t bring liquor on the reserve.

TS        You couldn’t or could?

JB        No.

TS        Why?

JB        They’ll fine you. People used to make their own brew, and they will throw the person in jail, 30 days in jail at the minimum (automatically?).

TS        This isn’t just Mi’kmaq, is it?

JB        Yes.

TS        It was just Mi’kmaq?

JB        Mi’kmaq and I don’t know about the other people on the other end?

TS        Was this during Prohibition or after?

JB        I don’t know really what’s going on. Maybe same thing. What’s happened here has happened on the west coast. A lot of old people was thrown in jail cause the had…. We had, I made the beer myself too, (seed beer?) and it was just like a tea. A person comes and give a tea.

TS        Yeah.

JB        That’s just like, that was the system we had here. We had two or three jugs, and when your friends come you give them a cup of that stuff. That’s the way we were using it, just like people in France using wine.

TS.       They outlawed Waltes too didn’t they? Is that right?  Is that around the same time?

JB        Yeah. When I was away in service we had everything. When I left, there was hardly anything left cause they moved most of the people to Eskasoni. We used to have, from (starting?) the olden days, people used to play ball every Sunday. Even one-armed Ben Johnson they called him. He was a pitcher. He was pretty good, and he was hired different places to play ball just to show the people that one-armed person can play the ball. When we were in service, everything died out.  No ball game, no hockey, nothing—we used to play hockey quite a bit. But when I come back, everything was dead. I gathered up the young fellas that’s left over, not doing nothing.  I started baseball, the baseball, started all over again. So, we were doing good, playing ball everywheres.

TS        After WWII?

JB        After WWII, until some of our boys moved to Eskasoni. That’s how we lose our team. We didn’t have enough of the young fellas to play. That’s how it died out again.

TS        What year was that? Do you remember?

JB        Maybe about fifties. ‘53 or something like that. Then some more young fellas growed up and I started hockey, cause I was playing hockey all my life. I played hockey in service, I played hockey wherever I get a chance to play it. So, there (played?) several times going to Sydney against the other Indian teams. So, it died out again, because the young fellas, they don’t wanna play; they want to drink. Liquor caught them.

TS        This is in the sixties now?

JB        Yeah. It’s in the sixties. Liquor caught them and they don’t want to play. Even now, they don’t play hockey; only little kids are playing hockey now. Two of my sons now playing all over the place. My grandsons play in Whycocomagh and different areas. And these two little boys here, my grandsons, they play on two different teams. They go around playing everywhere when the season opens. They’re doing pretty good.

TS        Were you part of the original team? How did baseball start here? Who started it? Where did it come from?

JB        Baseball, I don’t know. Where it came from—the older people were playing ball. They’re not really older people. My father was playing. Jimmy Basque, Tom Johnson, Richard Johnson, John Battiste, Mattie Lewis, Ben Johnson, Richard Nevin. There’s a whole lot of them I forgot.

TS.       John Paul?

JB        John Paul, I don’t think he plays. He might be trying to play.

TS        He said he wasn’t a very good player.

JB.       Simon Cremo was playing.

TS        Noel Marshall?

JB        Noel Marshall was playing. Tom Johnson, Ben Johnson. That’s two Ben Johnsons, Ben Noel Johnson. There were two Ben Johnsons. One, one-armed Ben Johnson, and the other one’s Ben Noel Johnson they call him because his father was Noel. That’s how it started, and they were playing good and everything was going good. We played…sometimes we can’t go anywheres. Come Sunday, early on Sunday, from 10:00, we can’t even go to church. We start playing until dark. And one place, they’d be playing while the Indians step dancing and all this stuff. People were coming all over the Richmond County, and some of them come from Glace Bay.

TS        They’d come here?

JB        Yeah. And some of them come from Reserve Mines, we used to play Reserve Mines.

TS.       They’d have dancing?

JB        Yeah, they were step dancing.

TS        So, you’d party all night?

JB        Not really all night, until dark. Like we didn’t have any lights eh?  We didn’t have power. Power came later. Maybe we would have been dancing all night if we had the power.

TS.       Step dancing, not Ko’jua?

JB.       Step dancing. No Ko’jua. Its way out. Ko’jua’s way out but it’s picking up gradually again.

TS        What year are you talking about now? In the twenties?

JB        Maybe about thirties. But then again, it died out. Ko’jua died out. And they started in Eskasoni again. Nobody’s started anything here.  I’d like to see them starting it.

TS.       Did you dance Ko’jua?

JB        I would try. There’s nothing to it. When you see them before…I was watching since I was a kid, I was watching.  At mission time they used to have it quite a bit and then it died out again. I don’t know why. Maybe the priests.

TS        Was it Wilfred, I’m not sure if it was Wilfred or not, but thought it continued up to the war, but you’re saying it died out earlier than the war, that it died out about ten years earlier.

JB.       Maybe earlier, before the war.  Wilfred was my best friend.

TS        So, you’re the same age as he is?

JB        No, I’m older. I used to learn him how to play guitar. He used to come over every night; learn him how to play guitar.  Then he learned the fiddle when he was living in Eskasoni. I was playng the fiddle too but I gave up on it.

TS        Why?

JB        I had a good fiddle. I brought the fiddle from the service. A guy gave it to me and said, “I can’t play nothing with it.” And I look at it and the fiddle was a Stradivarius. I didn’t say nothing; I brought it over. I play with it all the time, play with all the time. Suddenly, I put it in my bed and a guy was drunk, came over chasing a young girl and both of them jumped right in my bed and smashed my fiddle in pieces. That was the end of the fiddle for me. This guy who gave it to me didn’t know. As soon as I look at it I know. Simon Cremo try to buy it from me. I said I’d give it to him if I’d known that was going to happen, I’d give it to him. Cause I like Simon. Simon was my best friend because we were going around place to place, playing…he plays the fiddle in dances and I play the guitar for them.

TS        Did you play at the baseball games?

JB        Yeah, sometimes.  

TS        Simon’s Lee’s father?

JB        Yeah, they’re good people. Lee’s a good man and his father was a good man. I don’t know about his brother.  

TS        When did you start playing baseball yourself, in the twenties or thirties.

JB        I played about thirties cause I was too young when…

TS        You were sort of the second wave.

JB        Yeah, I moved(?) and moved (?) until I was able to play

TS.       How old when you started?

JB        Maybe about twelve or thirteen.

TS        So, you were ready to go?

JB        I tried as hard as I could. But then again, they brought this damn softball; they ruined everything.

TS        That was after the war, right?

JB        Yeah, they brought that about maybe about 10-15 years. 

TS        Who did that? How did that happen?

JB        Everybody.  It started from Membertou Reserve.

TS        Frank Doucette. I talked to him.

JB.       You know Frank Doucette? He was a real good pitcher, a good hockey player too.  I know him very well.

TS        And Raymond Christmas. I talked to him.

JB        Raymond wasn’t a hockey player; but he was a ball player, soft ball. He was pretty good at everything. Good pitcher. Best pitcher I ever seen, Indian pitcher any way.

TS        Did he ever come down here and play baseball or did you only play softball with Membertou?

JB        We played softball in Membertou a couple of times. We can’t get along with the softball. It’s pretty hard when you play the baseball, then all of a sudden you go with softball; it’s two different things.  It’s not all that easy, softball, when you started it.  But after you finish, then it’s easier. But hardball is a very good game—the best and fast.

TS        You had no mitts except for the pitcher, the catcher and the first base.  Is that right?

JB        Everybody had a mitt.

TS        By the 1930s?

JB        By the 1930s.  Jeez, you can’t catch a hardball…

TS        Because they didn’t in the twenties according everyone I’ve talked to, only the catcher and first baseman had a baseball mitt.

JB        That was only softball then.

TS        They were talking about baseball here.

JB        Jeez, I don’t know. Maybe they are all lying. All I know is most of them were using mitts. By the time I started playing they were using mitts.

TS        The regular leather baseball mitts?

JG        Yeah

TS        Cause they said there wasn’t enough money, nobody had enough money to buy either. That was the main thing, that nobody had enough money.

JB        I don’t think it was really that cause they started pie socials and things like that…Buy a (?)…buy A catrcher mitt, pitcher mitts, and other baseball, and base runners, everything for baseball. But, hockey is the hardest of all because we have (inaudible? ) because everything expensive. It’s really tough when you play hockey. And you gotta have proper equipment. If you don’t have proper equipment, you’re not going to get nowhere.   And no one can’t afford it if they’re not working. But I worked hard myself in the woods.

TS.       For money? For a living?

JB        Yeah. Try to  earn money for my (inudible?) glove or something like that. A ball or something like that    ….

TS        Did you sell lumber, is that what you did?

JB.       I cut lumber. Sell it. Four foot (?) pulp used to be….(?)

TS        Did you ever work for Father Songnais (sp?) From Quebec, and his brothers?

JB        No.

TS        Do you know what I’m talking about?

JB        I know him. He was from Quebec and they was chopping back in Soldiers Cove somewheres. And used to have big trucks and bringing in the truckloads and fill up that lake. And that lake today, you can’t spear the eels. The bottom is just like a floor. I know those Songnais people. They were pretty good people, good Catholics. (talks about not being allowed to videotape a Mi’kmaw ceremony and how he felt that was stupid). If that dies out, someplace, how the hell how are they going to renew it. (TS talks about researching the dances). Even about 15 years ago, I went to Halifax.  At that time, I was chief. I got a camera, some good cameras, and Indian people from the Valley were dancing around and I was going take pictures. And the guy told me no pictures.  The guy that runs the uh…I said, “Why?”  He said, “Too sacred.” I said, “Too  secret or sacred?”  He said, ‘‘Both.’’ I says, ‘’Why?’’ I said, “If you die tomorrow, day after tomorrow, nobody going to see you anymore.”

TS        Was Peter Googoo there?  

JB        Which Peter Googoo?

TS        From Whycocomagh. Was he there?

JB        I don’t know, there were so many damn people there.

TS        Peter Googoo, everybody says is the best. Ko’jua.  He’s the best dancer. From Whycocomagh. He’s about 75 years old. They say he floats when he dances.

JB        I’ve seen a lot of dancers floating. 

TS        What do you mean?

JB        I can see some of them just like floating on the air.  But even here it happened (? difficult to hear).

TS        You talking about Mi’kmaw dance?

JB        Yeah.

TS        You mean these are dancers you’ve seen in your lifetime, like the Grand Council?

JB        The Grand Council didn’t dance anything or they didn’t show anything on it. It’s the other people, like groups.

TS        What do you mean by groups? People who just got together?

JB        People who just got together.

TS        For fun, you mean?

JB        Yup. Just got together and the more they got together, the more they want to come.

TS        Men and women?

JB        Men and women. Some women, and some men can do it too. We used to have good dancers around here, step dancers. Real good dance, how they call those dances now.     

TS        Square dances?

JB        Square dances, yup. Round(?) and square dances. But young fellas, they’re getting boozed up and raising hell, they fight, and everything’s finished.   Well, two different liquors now. The home brew wouldn’t make you drunk. You just use it like a tea. You go to another house, they give you a cup of that stuff. But this government liquor, you’ll get drunk out of it. That’s stuff wouldn’t make you drunk. 

TS        Anyway, back to baseball.

JB        I don’t know why baseball die out. I think it die out by softball. But I’d rather baseball anytime than softball. We used to call it, years ago we used to call it ‘Ladies’ Game’.

TS        Annie Tina (Marshall) called it that too. She said they’d call it the ‘Ladies’ Game’ and the men’s game was baseball.

JB        But I never liked it until lately, I begin to…I would watch the guys playing. But it’s not all that active.

TS        But that was after the war wasn’t it? Softball?

JB        Yeah. No, I made the team after the war myself.

TS        The baseball team? Then that died out when people moved up to Eskasoni (during Centralization) in the fifties?

JB        Yup, and guys moved to Eskasoni and they ruined our team.  We didn’t have any more team.

TS        Did anyone from the twenties, thirties, or forties that played on your team, ever play for a professional or semi-professional team or teams off-reserve, non-Mi’kmaw teams?

JB        Only one. Ben Johnson.

TS        Did he play professionally or did he just play Exhibition Games?

JB        He played Exhibition Games.

TS        Did he get paid for that?

JB        I think they gave him pay cause he went all over Nova Scotia. They had a team, Glace Bay, they called Dominion Elks.  And they hired him cause everybody want to see the one-armed player.

TS        But that was just for an exhibition game?

JB        That was just the exhibition games.

TS        So, it wasn’t ongoing?

JB        No, he played all through the summer.

TS        With the Dominion Elks?

JB        Yeah.

TS        What year was this?

JB        Geez, I forget.  It’s pretty hard to say this is the year he played because you don’t have it in a computer what’s been happening here back on this reserve.

TS        You played white teams or non-Mi’kmaw teams, right?

JB        Yeah, I played softball on white teams. I played hockey on white teams.

TS        Was there much racism at all?  Did people ever give you trouble?

JB        No, there wasn’t racism. Only once when we played ball one time in French Cove. There was only one racist guy, called the Indians all kinds of names. He was drunk, eh? And one guy from Truro, he’s an Indian guy, big guy, they were bugging (?) him.  He went up and he told them, “What the hell you want?” calling him an Indian and all this stuff. He punched him and almost killed him.  Several punches. He knocked him down flat. and he told the other guys, “Anybody else wants that, let them say it right now.”  

But now, racism is very high in St Peters right now. You could talk with them, you could feel friendly, they’ll be your friends, but when you turn your back from them, they’re not your friends anymore. There’s a white girl working for me, and I told her one day, she didn’t like it. I says, “There’s so many goddamn many racists in St. Peter’s, I can’t understand it. Why?  We’re living together; we go to the stores together; we go to church together; we go to graveyards together.”  She didn’t say a thing but she’s changed a little bit now. It’s really tough. About ten, fifteen years ago, it was really bad, bad racism around here. They hate Indians just like the devil, that’s how much they hate them.

TS        But not when you were young? You didn’t feel that when you were young?

JB        No, I didn’t cause when I was young, I could go in French Cove, play hockey. Sometimes I stayed overnight somewheres.

TS.       In a non-Mi’kmaw place?

JB.       Non-Mi’kmaw.  Sometimes I go places to visit them.  Nobody called me anything.  Last 10 or 15 years it started….I don’t know if they’re jealous, maybe they’re jealous cause we’re getting new houses and all this stuff.

TS.       You mean they think you’re living off the government and that sort of thing?

JB        Yeah. Even a guy told me that one time. He said, “What do you think? You people living off the government?”  He says, “We’re paying tax on it.” I said, “Are you paying tax on your land?”  He says, “Sure I’m paying tax on my land.”  I says, “You’re not paying the tax on your land.”  I says, “You’re paying the rent on your land.” I said, “It’s our land—that’s why you’re paying for it.”  Couldn’t say anything. He was mad that the guy was cutting baskets. Cutting baskets and making baskets and he asked me who it was, and I told him, and he jumped up about that high, cursing and swearing…he was going to kill him if he catch him.  

And I took some axe handles from my brother-in-law— he was sick-and says, “Can you take it up for me?”  I said, I’d try cause I was having…(?).  I took it up and the first thing he asks me is, “Who’s making the baskets on the Chapel Island Reserve?”  I said, “James Bernard.”  Oh, he was jumping high and cursing.  It was near Christmas and there was a lot of French people around the area and I said I wasn’t going to take shit from nobody. I said I been in the service so why should I be taking shit from him?  I said, “Are you going to buy those handles?”  I said, “If you going to buy those handles, give me the goddamn money right now.” And he gave me the money. And I said, “Are you paying the tax for that land?” He says, “Sure, I’m paying the tax. Every year I’m paying tax on it.”  I said, “That’s our land. You’re paying the rent on our land.” He couldn’t say anything more. Cause I always had the, when somebody ask me something, I can always give them an answer. I try to anyway. I don’t have too much of English.

TS        Your English is good.

JB        I try best I could.

TS        Your English is very good. Can you talk about travelling baseball games?         

JB        We were travelling by trucks, every Sunday.  Big trucks, great big (rack?) trucks we got in. We go to Port Hawksbury, we go to Mulgrave playing.

TS        Who would you play?  Do you remember the names of the teams?

JB        No, I was too young.  And we went to Sydney, we played Sydney.  I don’t know who they were playing cause I was only a kid.  When everything’s died out, that movement, it pretty well killed everything, eh?

TS        Centralization?

JB        Centralization.

TS        Did you play all through the thirties and forties until you joined the service?

JB        Yep

TS        You pretty much started in the thirties after the Mattie Lewis’ and Ben Johnson’s.

JB        Yeah.

TS        Were they still playing when you played?

JB        Yeah, I played with them.

TS        When you got big enough?

JB        Yup. Mattie Lewis was my best friend.

TS        Was he older than you?

JB        Yeah, he was older but he was my best friend.

Tape 2 (break in tape)

TS        I was told that Ben Johnson, when he played cards with people, could tell what everyone had in his hand because of his psychic powers.

JB.       Well, I don’t know where Ben Johnson got the power from, but he can throw the ball, pitch the ball, and he can pick up his glove without touching the ground with his glove (I think he means hand).  Just like this (he shows how BJ would hold his hand).  Even a cat wouldn’t be able to do it.  He was the smartest man of all.

TS        Were people afraid of him?

JB        No, nobody scared of him because he wasn’t a guy to fight. He was just a player

TS        But they didn’t see him as a player with extra power of some sort?

JB.       Nobody bothered him. They all liked him.

TS.       So, he wasn’t mean?

JB.       It wasn’t mean. If anybody wants to tackle him, we all get into it helping him (?)  We never let anyone touch him. A couple times my brother-in-law was trying to attack him.

TS.       Who was that?

JB.       Peter Paul. He was playing ball too and we got him off pretty fast.  Can’t touch him.

TS.       Why was he trying to attack him?

JB        The reason why we tried to protect him all the time. (?) I got stuck driving trucks. (Break in conversation when son enters) Margaret Johnson is my sister-in-law. (TS and JB laugh about Margaret Johnson calling TS her daughter, Tu’s, and how they are related.) Sometimes Bernie (Francis comes over that he couldn’t know the word in Mi’kmaw. And I tell him what the word is.  A couple of times he came over and asked me if I can tell him a certain word, what it means in Mi’kmaw, and I told him. For instance, he asked me, he says, “What do you call the oranges in Mi’kmaw?” And my father called them in Mi’kmaw, jikjapiknej. They called them jikjapiknej. It’s a hard word. But there would be a lot of people wouldn’t understand that. But my father, he used an old language.

TS        What does that mean literally?

JB.       I just told you, oranges. I don’t think too many people knows that. I don’t know if Margaret knows it or not. (TS tells about joke Bernie played on her with a dirty word).

JB        That’s the same thing I done with a couple of young Frenchmen I was with them in service, working in the (?) about the forties. They asked me if I can tell them the word about “I love you.” and all this stuff to the girls.

TS        Kesalul?

JB        Yeah, I give them a dirty word. When Monday comes, the guy was really mad.  He says, “You know what?”  He says, “When I told that girl, she hauled off and slapped me.” (TS talks about how people should start with the dirty words when they start to learn Mi’kmaw.)

JB.       Just like you and I are talking, I wouldn’t use a dirty word cause I respect you, what you are doing.

TS        John Paul told me, he said “I only tell lies.” I said, “Probably everybody else does so we’ll just write history about lies anyway. Who will know?”  I do have one question. Who ploughed the first baseball field here?  How did that happen?

JB        The way I heard it, a bunch of men. They were playing around little by little.  Finally, they find a place.  Of course, everybody had a horse around here.

TS        Did everyone?

JB        Everybody had horses and cattle around here before that movement (Centralization). And chicken, pork, whatever they have.  And the men gathered themselves up, and with the horses, and they pulled the stumps out of there, and they ploughed it and harrowed it and everything. Mostly, I think, it was Tom Johnson. I think he was the head guy because he likes the sports. And Johnny Lewis, Mattie Lewis’ father—he was a good player too until he got hurt. He got hurt on the ball. A guy give him a shoulder and he dislocated a shoulder.

TS        Playing ball?

JB        Yeah. And took him to hospital and he died.

TS        From being hit?

JB        Yup, later. He died later.

TS        Did John Paul help plough the field?

JB.       I think John might be helping them but… Everyman, they pretty well asked every man to go to that field and brought their horses and pulled the stumps. And some of them were ploughing and harrowing (?) We had this ball field, we made this ball field when we had the summer games.  And we had another one way up there…people living there now.  Indian Summer Games used to be nice. They all die out now.

TS        I heard the last one was in ‘87?

JB        I think we were the ones had the last summer games cause the Department of Indian Affairs wouldn’t put any more money in it.

TS        Where did they learn baseball? Was it just from watching other teams?

JB        The way I heard, the Indians are been playing ball for years and years and years and years.

TS.       Meaning back to before white people came?

JB        Before white people, they used to use their, made their ball by wrapping something, leather or something.

TS.       Like leather thongs or something like that?

JB        Yeah, and they use the bats, they made the bats with a stick.

TS        There’s a game that people keep talking about called ‘Old Fashion Ball’.  Everyone mentions that they played it around here.

JB        I think that’s how it started.

TS        You think that’s where baseball came from?

JB        I think that’s where baseball started.

TS        Are you saying that game (Old Fashion) is the same game that Mi’kmaq played way, way back?

JB        I think maybe.

TS        So, you don’t think that’s a white game. It’s something Mi’kmaq passed down?

JB        No, I don’t think it’s a white game. I think Mi’kmaq passed it down. The Old Fashion game used to be a good game. We used to be playing Old Fashion game before the season opens, summer season for ball games. We used to have prayers down below where they had an old school; they used to have prayers there almost every Sunday. And they had a big dish of food of every kind. They spread it amongst the kids and everybody after prayers. Can’t say after mass cause we didn’t have any mass at that time. But it’s pretty hard to find out exactly how the baseball game started. I think that’s how it was started really—’Old Fashion’ game. I think… you gotta hit the guy with the ball.

TS        Someone was telling me there was no foul ball so you could hit the ball anyway

JB        No foul ball. We used to play a lot at one time. Then after the season comes, then we start playing the hard ball.

TS        But Old Fashion ball was around as long as you know?

JB        I really don’t know exactly how it went or how it came or how it went.  I know how it went. It’s gone for good.

TS        When did it go?

JB        When the war was over, the year after I got out about ’45 or ’46, I had a team two years, and it died out.

TS        That’s baseball.

JB        That’s baseball, yeah.

TS        But ‘Old Fashion Ball’? Did that already die out by the war.

JB        ‘Old Fashion Ball’ died out already.

TS        Before the war?

JB        Before the war.

TS        So, it wasn’t the war that wiped it out?

JB        No, I don’t know exactly.  Maybe they just don’t want to play with it.  I think they just want to play baseball or something like that.

(JB. Talks about a flag he has hanging that he got in the service… TS asks about pictures he might have. JB says a lot of pictures were stolen from his house, about 1000 pictures. Also talks about being on tanks and motorcycles in the army corp, Tape breaks abruptly.)