The following interview is with Dr. Marie Battiste at her home in Eskissoqnik (Eskasoni) First Nation, Cape Breton Nova Scotia. It was conducted by Dr. Trudy Sable on January 1, 1991.  The interview was part of Sable’s research on Mi’kmaw dance as a form of transmission, which would be incorporated into her M.A. Thesis, Another Look in the Mirror: Research into the Foundations for Developing a Cross-Cultural Science Curriculum for Mi’kmaw Students, and the book co-authored with Dr. Bernie Francis, The Language of this Land, Mi’kma’ki.  Barry Bernard of Eskasoni joined the interview, as did Marie’s mother, Annie Battiste. Brian Guns, who was travelling with Dr. Sable, was also present.

Sponsorship for this and other interviews came through the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre in Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Iniatiatives Program, 2018-2021. 

MB:      So, you want to talk about dance, Pestie’wa’taqatimk.  I have a paper that I wrote on this which would be, I had at the school had I known that’s what you wanted. But basically, I can give you that tomorrow too or send it down to you, whichever.  

Pestie’wa’taqatimk is, yes, p-e-s-t-i-e apostrophe w-a-t-a-q-t-i-m-k with an apostrophe after the first ‘a’ too. (Note: In the S/F orthography, it is spelled Pestie’wa’taqatimk.) Pestie’wa’taqatimk, was an occasion that my mother and father remember vividly as part of their childhood, so it’s not certain when it began but certainly it had to have begun after the missionaries arrival. Or, there might have been a variation of it prior to that. The reason I say that is because Pestie’wa’taqatimk had this naming of the saints’ names; they used saints names like Steven and John and Louis or Louise and Elizabeth, as names, Noel, all which were saints’ names, so there is a connection to the church. Pestie’wa’taqatimk began on Christmas day, but prior to Christmas day people would have a gathering before it and maybe—I’m not sure if it was a week or so before the event—and the community would gather at somebody’s house or at the hall. It might be the Chief’s house, and then they would, various people would come, and they would bring food to this event and they would have a person, a man and a woman, who would be responsible for separating the food and getting the food ready to give out to the people, which means, you know, sort of getting the banquet table ready. Now the banquet table was the floor upon which they would put a white sheet, and all the food would be placed on top of it and then they would sort of dish out the food for the people, and the people would sit on the floor in this house or wherever. But the event was to plan and get ready for Pestie’wa’taqatimk.

There were thirteen days of Pestie’wa’taqatimk from the time of Christmas day, or Christmas night, to the epiphany, which was the sixth of January, and during that time, during each of those nights there would be various peoples’ names honored. Everyone remembers John and Steven and Noel and Louie and Levi, which was last, but they don’t remember all the names, as I have done the research about this among the Elders. But basically, they were saints’ names and they were men and women who were honored so Louie might have also Louise on the same night because of the similarity. Noel and Newell would be on the same night so that if there was a Noel and Newell, they would be the same. So, it was men and women. And on the night that they did this planning together and brought the food—and traditional foods like molasses cake and breads and, you know, brown breads, and foods like soups, eels, would be brought to the event and they would begin by having prayers and then they would pray for about as much as an hour or two beforehand by… the traditional hieroglyphic prayers and chants would be sung. And so, they would pray and then after all the prayers were said, then they would have their meal, and then they would discuss whose names and on which nights they would be going around during the Pestie’wa’taqatimk occasion, and so they would pick the names, pick the nights and…

TS:      Who is they?

MB:     The Elders, I mean all the people who came. Usually it was all the adults in the community, they didn’t bring their children along to that, although, there are some children who remember going to it because there wasn’t anybody to babysit. So, they would all get together and would decide this stuff and then they would leave. And then on Christmas day night, seven o’clock or so, they would begin going from house to house, so that at the time there was a lot of similarity in names in the community. Like Newell, if there was a Newell in the family, his name would have been a traditional name of his father, grandfather, and so on, so there was a lot of names like this. Thomas and Newell and John and Steven were saints’ names but also names that were traditionally part of the community; so there was a lot of Stevens and so what they would, like today and then, they would name…like your name was Steven, you would have a middle name as well. So, your middle name would really identify you, that your name was Steven John, or Steven James, you know, or they might give you a nickname, but everybody had a middle name. So, there was a lot of peoples’ houses to go to if you were going to pick the name Steven, for example, there would be a lot of people to go to—Andrew, John.

And when you went to the house you would bring with you a shaved flower, which I have in the other room, and there would be someone before they went, who was assigned to the task of making this, which was, basically, everybody made baskets at the time so it was no big deal to take these two sticks, pit them together, shave them a little bit fancy, make them a little bit something, and then they would put around it a metal, a tie, a shirt, some cloth, or something, you know, as a gift that you would give to this person. So, the honored guest, or whose name was honoured would get this gift of the cross plus something on it. And so, when they would come with this gift they would bring it, and they would not bring any food or anything, but they would go to this house, and they would bring this gift, and they would say to them Wla na kna’kwekm. Ktansale’m peji apu’sk wla ktuasuekm, which means, “This is your day and your guardian angel has brought you this flower.” And with that, the person would say pjila’si, which means welcome, and he would invite them to come to the middle of the house or up into the honoured parts of the houses, which there were honored parts of houses to be. And they would—all the people who had come, you know, the whole trail of people from the community— would then enter into the house, and then in the house like you saw, those centralization houses that I showed you, in there where there was no inside walls and things that they ever had to worry about, it was one big flat floor, that they would then dance the Ko’jua. Using the ji’kmaqn, that you saw, they would chant out the song and they would Ko’jua around in a circle and they would around, usually the stove was in the center of the house, sort of as a central heating, so people would dance around the stove and as they danced, the wood floor would move and everything in the house would move with the…as people went around the stove.

And so, after they were, after they had danced, then that was their paying for their food. Whenever Mi’kmaq went to someone else’s house as part of the, you know, the food and all of the stuff that you got, you paid back by your visit, by your stories, by your, you know, by your doing something. Not necessarily did it have to be that you had to do dishes or anything like that, but basically your company was favored, wanted, you know, and so that you would share these things with the people in the home.

BG:      I just, this is interesting for me, so, in that sense the dance was not enjoyment for one’s self but a gift to your host.

MB:     Yeah, and so after you had danced, then you, then the host would then feed the people because they went from house to house and ate all night, it didn’t matter that you got only a little cup full of food, or a little piece of bread, or whatever it is that the people could afford or otherwise give. Since Christmas came at the end, of course, of harvesting, if you picked and gathered and planted and otherwise gotten ready for the winter like everyone did, you would have things put away for the winter, and so at this time people would then give from their stock of food. Because they were feeding large groups of people, they would ready things that they could share with a lot of people. Eels was easily accessible and so eels could be made into a stew. All you had to do was to fix it in a particular way. You know, one of the things is that they cleaned it by the ashes of the stove and so sometimes the ashes would be part of the taste in the pot, which is, among the elders, a very highly favored taste that you haven’t had for a very, very, very long time. And, it would be made also with some corn meal to thicken the broth and you might put little dough balls in, like you make a stew, you make little smaller, even smaller than that, dough balls as part of this, and some onions and potatoes. And that was what they called Katawapu and Katawapu was a favored meal. So, Katawapu might be something that they would have as a traditional meal, they might have some other kinds of fish, or stew, or something that would feed a lot of people, a soup for example. And sometimes the people would, because there wasn’t enough utensils for everyone to use, at anybody’s house to feed everybody they might bring their own birch bark cup, which was just a cup that was made, fashioned from Birch bark, which you could just dip into the pot, you know, and get your meal and then, and take with you.

 So anyway, after the dancing and the meal, you know, and the people would then get ready and then move on and go to the next house. And going to the next house, really, there was quite a different distance between house— it was not like you next door neighbor was, you know, like next door to here, but was down the road a piece so they’d have to walk a ways to the next house, And so there would be everyone walking together and talking and sharing stories and laughing and telling jokes and the children, who were with them, would be going along. And so, it was one of the most memorable events among the Elders as to being a very fun time and a very good thing to do. And they did this as they went to the next house, you know, they would do the same, you know, and you honored your guests in the same way with bringing the flower, saying the words, and they invite them into the house, and they dance the dance, they eat the meal, they sit and share stories and talk, and it was quite a social event, as then they would get up and go to the next house. And they would do this all night long, and at dawn they would then go home (laughter) and they would sleep for a little bit, or others might get ready for the day. And then, it would be a matter of getting ready for the next one. And you know, it went on for several days after that.

TS:       What is Ko’jua? I have been asking a lot of people this question and I am still not quite sure what it is.

MB:      I see it as a social dance; it’s a social event, but other than that I guess I can’t really say any more about it. I always see it within a social realm. I don’t see it in a spiritual way, I mean you’re not dancing Ko’jua, you know. Although, we have added Ko’jua to the church ceremonies at Christmas when we do a play. And we do the Huron Carol, and the Huron Carol is done during the Christmas, midnight mass, and children, for the midnight mass, or even for the earlier masses might the do the Huron Carol. And during that Heron Carol there would be Ko’jua, the dancing of glad tidings and dancing. And so basically, I guess that we relate Ko’jua to a happy and social good time.

So anyway, Pestie’ wa’taqatimk would go on with each of the days going on like that until the last day, which was the sixth. And on the sixth, which was the epiphany, it was known as the epiphany, in Mi’kmaw it’s called Eleke’wia’timk, which is the King’s Day. And on that day when they remember the kings who came and delivered the gifts to the baby Jesus, it is reenacted in various ways in the dance that takes place on that night. They have been dancing Ko’jua dancing and eating for all the thirteen days prior to and honoring the names of the various people. And on the last day they honor the name of Levi, I don’t know why, Syllibye.

TS:       Syllibye?

MB:      Syllibye, you know, Sylliboy’s, the Sylliboy’s is Levi, okay? And so they would have a dance and all the people would come to the hall or to somebody’s house. Now, on that night, or it might even be on the night of their planning, it depends on different communities had different styles, you know, Whyocomagh, Chapel Island, Eskasoni, all had a little variation to their, what they did. And so that there might be in one community, they’d pick the king and queen early and they have a king and queen. And it’s pretty much put your names in a hat, you pick a king and you pick a queen, and on the night, and so that the king and the queen, being the host for the evening would do the preparations for the dance, get everything ready. Or it might be that, if a king and queen is selected, the dance may be at either the king or the queen’s house, depending on, you know, which house would be better suited to it. Or it might be done in a hall, or the school, or someplace where a gathering of people could be.

And they would then have this dance and they would at this time they would bring in fiddlers. So, it was definitely after the English and the French were here. And they would have fiddlers, and that night they would have a dance and it would be a square dance and fiddling, you know, music and so on. And then the night would have the king and queen—the king and queen might dress, you know, appropriately by wearing a crown, really trying to dress in ultra-fine clothes, they might make themselves fine clothes so that they would have had to of known beforehand that they were the king and queen as opposed to, you know, just being surprised with it. And they would make nice things or a robe or a hat and other kinds of things. Different communities did different things.

And so then the night would begin, and that night the people would bring foods, and everyone would bring different kinds of foods and as opposed to when the host gave it, now everyone brings foods like meat pie and eels and soups and different kinds of breads and cakes and things like that. Mostly cakes that were more like sweet cakes, like molasses cake, as opposed to the sweet cake with frosting on it. And so, with all of the food there and the people there they would have…before you ate you had to dance, and so people would dance and then they would eat and then it would be the playing of the fiddle and so on.

One of the things that they also had was different kinds of characters who were present at this thing so that, and again at different places they did different things, but they might have a character whose name was picked out of a hat earlier, who was the devil. And the devil would dress up like the devil and would try to entice people to do bad things.  And then along with the devil there would be a priest, who would dress up as a priest and he would try to be there chasing the devil away and acting like a priest and roaming through the crowd, you know, making people laugh, and you know, doing things with the devil, and trying to, you know, to reenact this devil and priest. And then they had a monkey. A monkey who… they had a person who would act out being a monkey and would make all the sounds and noises of a monkey. And the characteristic of this monkey would be that they would imitate everything people would do and that would also make people laugh. So that if sat like that the monkey would also sit like that or you know, he would find all the characteristics of the people and mimic them and so it would also be very fun, and people would enjoy it. They had other characters too, let me think…Gosh I can’t remember now what were…

BG:      Would these characters preform in the dance in their roles, do you suppose, or was that something separate?

MB:      I think that they sort of did impromptu skits more than, you know, dancing kind of thing, but more in terms of just skits and acting out and pretending and you know, trying to think of what they could possibly do, you know, in that role. The priest would shake his holy water at people, you know, to try to keep the devil from being able to influence them, and things like that.

BG:      Do you have any guesses about where this monkey character would have come from? I mean the devil and the priest is kind of an obvious one, but I mean there’s no monkeys around this part of the world, would you have no notion of that?

MB:      I really don’t know.

BG:      This is interesting.

TS.:      The zoo.

MB:      (Laughter) The zoo, I don’t know. And then they had a couple other characters, I just…it’s just not pulling because-

TS:       Did they have clowns or anything like that?

MB:      No, no, odd characters. You might find it in the paper; I might have put it in. But any way, these were what happened then, and what happens now…what would happen is, every Christmas, you know, from the time I was a little girl, every Christmas, my father and mother would say, well at Christmas time this is what we used to do. And they would tell me all the things of what they used to do and of course as I came back, these things they didn’t do here, and Christmas was just your regular old Christmas and with the regular Christian holiday and the gifts and all the other kinds of things. And I mean there was some unique things like basket making and wreath making, which are a part of Christmas holidays. But I heard this said so frequently and everybody and every Elder I’d meet, they’d say, “Oh this is what we used to do.”

So, one year, a few years ago, I took it upon myself to find out everything I could possibly find out about that occasion, and I did research among the Elders and asked them everything and wrote down everything they said and all the words that were said during the time. And then, after having that knowledge and all that information, I thought now what is the point of having all this information if we don’t do something with it? And so, you know, I said to one of the Elders, I said wouldn’t it be nice if we had this come back again. And he said oh yes it would be nice but there are so many people and we wouldn’t be able to go to people’s houses and you know, that is probably why it died, because, you know, as after centralization and  the families went from twenty five families, you know, to how many families we have here, it’s just impossible to get in even a fraction of those families in a house. Nobody’s got a house that big and nobody can afford it anymore, and, you know, the time of self-sufficiency, farming and gathering and putting things away, has long gone. I mean we don’t have that anymore, that self-sufficiency we had before centralization. After centralization and the introduction of welfare, people no longer need to put away things, or otherwise keep cellars full of food and stuff like that to last through the winter. Hunting was not necessarily as required anymore because now you had a stipend of money that you could now travel to town to go buy your meat and potatoes. And as long as you can buy your meat and potatoes, then you’re basically, then you really don’t have to, you know, to put away your potatoes.

[Barry Bernard enters]

BB:      Kwe’

MB:      Good evening Barry. Oh my God, there we go

TS:      Who is it?

MB:      That’s our (inaudible)

[Interruption in tape]

MB:      …to Roddy Stevens about Pestie’wa’taqatimk and had gotten all of that research, I then said, “Well why don’t we do that?”  And he said, “Well I don’t think we can,” and all this sort of stuff, and I said, “Yes we can, yes we can.”  And, because I’m on the parish council, I went to the parish council and said, “Let’s do this as our thing.” Instead of having a after Christmas party for the community, which they always had, I said let’s do this instead and let’s make it cultural. And because we had just had a session, a retreat kind of thing that they really tried to emphasize all of the cultural things that we could add to the church, they agreed to do it.  And so the thing that we decided to do was to ask all kinds of people to bring food, but that we would—the cakes and the bread, we wouldn’t pay for—but basically for anything that required meat we would buy the meat and give it to them because after Christmas everyone is sort of poor and they don’t have very much money to do things.

So, we gave them that and we had a table long from the gym all the way from one end of the gym to the other end of the gym was just a very long table, and it was filled with meat pies…meat pies, and cakes, and breads, and biscuits, and Luskinikn or four cents cake. And there was more food than you could possibly imagine for a group of people, and the place was packed. We set it up that we tried to get some dancing room in the middle of the floor because we said we want to make sure that people danced for their food because that is basically an old tradition. You can’t just go in and sit down, you got to do something for your food, you know, dance or play your guitar or play your fiddle or play your piano, whatever you gotta do but you do something that adds to the social harmony of the group, you know, and certainly dancing increases the social harmony. (Laughter).

And so, we had it set up that we would have people come in and they would all take their seats, we would have an explanation about Pestie’ wa’taqatimk so that the young people would know what happened a long time ago and how this is a variation from it. And then, we would then give out the crosses to each one of the Elders, and only to Elders because we decided we couldn’t possibly meet all the Stevens and Johns in the community but just the Elders, and that was quite enough. We had some forty or fifty people, you know, involved in that and we would give them the cross and say what was to be said and they would kiss each other, I mean actually it was a cheek to cheek kind of thing, and then they would get their cross with their cloth and the medal on it. And then afterwards would be the feast, but before the feast was the dance, and that everyone had to Ko’jua before they dance, with the ji’kmaqn. Our problem, probably, if we erred in any way, to try to bring this about we brought in Sarah Denny’s dancers who will intimidate anybody, you know, with their fine cloth, fine dresses, you know, accomplished dancing be up there and then you bring a whole bunch of unskilled, don’t know how, looking at everybody’s feet kind of crowd, you know. And, basically, it just, it didn’t promote their dancing; it inhibited their dancing.  And, if there was anything that I would do again differently, is I wouldn’t put anybody up there who was skilled. I would just say let’s go at it and let’s find people who want to dance because people who want to dance, they want to get up and they want to dance but it takes a while to get going. And so Sara, Denny didn’t give them the long wait, you know the pause, before you say everybody has to dance, and she would start. No, no, no, you say everybody has to dance, and you have to be on your feet and you have to be in the middle of the floor. That would be the prerequisite that I would say, and you urge and push for that until you finally get enough people and then you would start the dance. And so, the dance went very quickly and, you know, not very many people got up, and everybody who said I would like to dance didn’t even get a chance to dance so… Both years, or how many years, I don’t know, see we had it a couple, two or three years now, has it been two or three?

BB:      Three years now.

MB:      Three years, so any way, each year we do it a little bit differently but basically the same rudimentary things that go on, same kind of foods and so on. And then after the dance they would, then you have, we pick our king and queen out of the hat, we crown them with a hat like, like you saw, the peaked hat and the feathers and then they get to sit in the honored spot ahead of, you know, at the table with the Elders, and then we’d feed everybody. And after the feed then we have a dance, or not a dance but actually it’s Lee Cremo plays his fiddle and a few people play their fiddle and then some people might get choosed to get up and dance, but basically, it’s a dance after that supposedly.  And then you just enjoy your evening and talk and socialize and have fun and then that’s it.

TS:       Where do you think the king and queen came from? Is that an oral tradition or (inaudible) it’s just it’s interesting-

MB:      (Sigh) The king and queen, I don’t know…the king and queen (laughs).  I tell you that’s sort of, certainly post-European.

BG:     I was wondering if that would be sort of like Mary and Joseph sort of thing or…?

TS:       Joseph with a head dress. (Laughing) Mary with a peaked cap (Laughing)

MB:      During the Huron Carol that’s exactly what they wear, but I don’t think it is them; I don’t think so. I think it’s not meant to be…I don’t know, what do you think Barry? Do you think the king and queen is Mary and Joseph? (Laughter)

TS:       It’s just somebody’s idea…

BB:      I don’t think so, I don’t think of them as Mary and Joseph-

MB:      What were the other characters that they had? They had a monkey and a priest and a devil.

BB:       (Inaudible)

MB:      No, not this year; but traditionally. Do you remember what the other kind of characters they had? Because there are more characters, I think, in the Whycocomagh group, than they had in Chapel Island. Like my Dad said oh, they have these three in Chapel Island are these ones, but I think it was one of the Whycocomagh people who told me, or Wagmatcook, that said they had other characters. You know, that they pick, I don’t know whether they pick those out of a hat or they just volunteered. And the devil would act out, you know, trying to entice the people to go drink, or go outside with him, or you know, do whatever he could get them to do with him, you know. And while the priest would be spraying the holy water, and blessing everybody and everything, you know, “My son, my children”, you know, all this sort of stuff. And then the monkey would be imitating everyone, and he would go around imitating what he saw, and imitating people and making them laugh. But there were other characters and I think there were other animal characters, but I can’t remember.

TS:      I wonder where the whole ceremony came from (inaudible).

MB:      I don’t know—You heard of the Acadian ceremony like this?

TS:       Like Christmas or something, the saints? I don’t know, it would be interesting. I don’t know.

MB:      But anyway, this is, you know, we are trying to keep this, you know, revived and in the heads of our people, you know. And try to sort of stir up and help them to remember these sorts of things. I think that, you know, carrying on the Pestie’wa’taqatimk tradition, you know, helps us to, you know, keep strong ties with our Elders and helps us to. It’s a time when we get to honour them, you know, the only time in the year, we don’t have any other time. Now we may honour them by saying they can eat first for whatever meals we might have, or we may do something for [Marie uses a Mi’kmaw word which Kenny Prosper wrote as Maltikle’wimk – Shrove Tuesday or Mardi Gras] just for senior citizens, but this is a real honoring time.

BG:      Can you tell me, do you think, and it sounds from the description of it, it’s obviously some sort of combination of sort of European Christmas traditions, but then also the honoring of the Elders thing, so it’s a mix of, sort of old and new. But in terms of its sort of feeling, does it seem to be more kind of like a Christian, religious, Christmas-y type of thing, or more of kind of like a traditional. I mean what word does the emphasis have to be.

MB:      Well I wouldn’t say it’s Christian. (Laughter) I would say that it is definitely more Mi’kmaw traditional. The social…In fact, the thing that I think came up in Sarah Denny’s talk, and I think you, if you remember, she says, “Well the priest told us we couldn’t do this all night long,”,remember? And that this dancing all night long and playing and partying, and going from house to house, and they got mad at it and they said don’t do this anymore. Well it suggests to me that most definitively, this is Mi’kmaq in origin in terms of the socialness that went with this. And it doesn’t surround the Baby Jesus kind of concept very well because that is the focus of Christmas and Christmas tradition, the Baby Jesus. The only thing that is close is the gift that’s brought in the cross to the people. But other than that, the cross and the medal, the medal on the cross, there isn’t anything else that suggests too much of, you know, your Guardian Angel brought you this flower but it could be, Wla ktansale’m is, we call it “Guardian Angel” but in literal terms is it Guardian Angel? Wla ktansale’m? [Kenny Prosper translates this as “This is your Guardian Angel.”]

BB:      Wla ktansale’m. When you mention going house to house, I interviewed this lady in Truro and she told me they used to go by names, be it Johns or Pauls, and each time somebody’s name got picked out, you know, they announce that they were going to go over to John’s. Well John prepares a feast, everybody goes there to dance Ko’jua, you know, they dance Ko’jua or whatever, dance all night, the next day, everybody’s rested up, they go somewhere else. They used to do that like a little cycle eh?

MB:      Yup.

BB:      Go around the reserve, house to house. If you were poor, you just say that you are poor, and they just continue on to the next house. Who did I interview? Mary Brooks. Was it Mary Brooks? I think so, yeah. She told us that

MB:      Is that the one you have on that tape over there?

BB:      No that’s Agnes, Agnes Prosper.

MB:      Pictou Landing?

BB:      Yeah

MB      But anyway, there is a lot of…I think that there aren’t…Well, let me see, besides this we have Maltikle’wimk. Now,  Maltikle’wimk is, again, Mardi Gras, and you can hear it Maltikle’wimk, Mardi Gras…Maltikle’wimk.  So definitely, its roots are embedded in Mardi Gras, you know, play all night, play your waltes all night, play cards all night, you know, do what you would do, you know, and do it excessively.

TS:       When was that, when did you do that that?

MB:      It was like that the Tuesday night before Ash Wednesday, the pancake night.

TS:       After you have given up everything?

MB:      Yeah, so you would eat all the sweets, you would eat reams of molasses on top of this, what you..this four-cents cake. Well four-cents cake pancakes are thinner, smaller, but of the same taste, quality and weight (laughter) and together with molasses instead of syrup. You wouldn’t use maple syrup, you would use molasses. And after a meal of that then you start sort of like a fast, then you know, you would just eat and eat and eat and eat and eat, and then you play all night. You play cards and waltes and you know you just do everything excessively (laughter), dancing…everything is done in excess so that on Ash Wednesday it is a fast; its like cut off, everything, you know, that you like to do, everything that you like to eat, everything that, you know, you enjoy doing, you stop for Lent. Like people are stopping bingo, and stopping waltes, stopping card playing, stopping sweets, stopping pop, stopping smoking, stopping chewing gum, stopping, you know, chewing tobacco. So, everything that is liked and enjoyable are just cut. But that is definitely in the church tradition, you know, kind of the Mardi Gras. So, I think with all the kinds of things that are traditional is best…

TS:       Did you do any dancing when you were younger, yourself? Excuse me for interrupting.

MB:      I did a lot of dancing of the dance in the community that I was in, but I grew up in the States and it was only when I came home that I saw people dance at Chapel Island Mission.

TS:       Ko’jua again?

BB:      Yup, they used to have a competition

TS:       Ko’jua competitions? Men and women or just (inaudible)?

BB:       Doesn’t matter so long as you could dance, you know, to try to out dance the other one.

TS:       Do you know if they ever do the Neskewet?  What is it, the welcoming?

MB:      Mmhmm. Yeah, that went on, I asked my mother, and when did that stop? I think that-

BB:      67’

MB:      Neskewet?

BB:      No, the dancing on Chapel Island-

MB:      Yeah, no.

BB:       Around 67’

TS:       Did it stop on Chapel Island

BB:      Because I remember on Chapel Island when we used to go to Chapel island, we were still kids but that was when we really enjoyed Sunday afternoons, Saturday afternoons…

TS:      And then it stopped?

BB:      It just suddenly stopped.

TS:       Do you know why, or you don’t know why?

MB:      I think I heard that, let me see, before (Telusi?) Jean in Membertou, (Mi’kmaw Word) they used to do that. Kabatay.

 (Note: Kenny Prosper noted that Eddie Kabatay was Ojibwa from Ontario, who married Teresa Doucette from Membertou.)

BB:      Kabatay’s

MB:      Before Kabatay’s, who used to do that?

BB:      Joey’s father. (Note from Trudy Sable:  Barry is referring to Joey Gould of Paqnkek (Afton) First Nation..

MB:      Joey’s father, so-

BB:     (inaudible)

MB:      Joey’s father did it, and the Kabatay’s (also spelled Kabatty) did it, but after Kabatay’s did it, then nobody did it anymore. It was like, somebody is in charge of doing this, you know, and in all traditions, somebody passes it on to somebody else to do, you know. So, you do it, and you do it and it’s like, you know, if you leave, your job is to pass it on to somebody else, like prayers or anything else, you know. That is how tradition is passed on is that you’re responsible to giving it to somebody who takes care of it. And so, without anybody doing it, taking care of it, and being responsible for it, it went past a year. And they said, you know, reflectively, “Gee, it’s too bad there wasn’t back (that?)on.” So, then the next year came and they said, “Well, I wonder if anybody is going to do that,” and nobody did it. And then they’d say reflectively, “Gee it’s too bad, long time ago we used to do “x’, “y” and “z”, now too bad we don’t do it anymore.” But all it required was somebody to be in charge just like Pestie’wa’taqtimk, you know.  Now, at this point in time, you know, every year at a certain time the ones of…  

[Tape 1 ends. Break in conversation]

Tape 2

MB:      …all of a sudden, “I’m tired of this stuff. I didn’t like the way they treated me last year. The women are getting hard to make this stuff. They’re… am’pakewit what’s the am’pakewit word?

[Note: Bernie Francis explained am’pakewit means that s/he is being stubborn. The           etymology is Humbugewit, thus derived from the English, humbug.]

BB:      There’s no word. (laughter) am’pakewit. (TS: I think I got the idea). It’s like a person wouldn’t budge or you get mad and that person wouldn’t budge–that meaning in between. I wouldn’t know how to put it in English. Am’paklied. (Note: This is not a word). (Laughter)

MB:      So, if anybody is like this, they would really give you the idea that they don’t want to do it. And pretty soon, you don’t want to push people like that to do anything anymore. So, what you do is you just say, “Forget it. I’m not going to do it anymore.” So that’s the idea, you know? You’ve got to have a little cooperation in it, but when the cooperation comes to really pushing and tugging and making people mad, then you just say, “Hell with it.” Then you get ki’kalsit [laughter] And, ki’kalsit would be after having someone be am’pakewit you would say, “Forget it”, I can’t do it anymore [Lots of laughter] Anyway, we have a lot of favoured descriptions of people that are very hard to get in English.

[Note: Bernie Francis translated and spelled it ki’kalsit or ki’kassit, a variation. It means when a person is “sour grapes.” Supposing you’re delayed someone’s meal. Then after a time you say to him/her: “Ok you can eat now.” The response from the person who is ki’kalsit would be something like “Shove it! I don’t want it now!!!”]

BB:      Sometimes it’s so hard to translate Mik’maw words to English, eh? because there is no word in English that there is in Mik’maw, it’s just that little word.

TS:        The sound of it too. How can you get am’pakewit or whatever?

MB:      Am’pakewit or ki’kalsit

TS:      It’s funny that Ko’jua endured and so many other dances didn’t. Was it because it was a general celebration dance and maybe was done a lot, do you think?

MB:      Yeah. Because there are a lot of times when you Kojua but you wouldn’t necessarily do a wedding dance frequently. What’s the dance, they do it to the I’ko. That’s the two forward, one back kind of thing. But that one is…

BB:       Snake dance.

MB:      Snake Dance

TS:       Is there one?

BB:       Yes, there is one. I’ve seen it in Nyanza.

TS:        Yeah, Sarah Denny talks about it and I have one description of it. Sarah Denny talks about doing that.

BB:      Kids were dancing around with each other. When that music, drum stopped, they’ll put down the rattle, continue again, someone would pick it up. Wherever they stopped, that person would get up and start dancing with the rattle and go and zigzag around everybody. And the music stops, she puts down that rattle wherever, continue on. I’ve got it on tape.

MB:      I think that that dance is related to the medicine gathering practices.

TS:        We were talking about that one day. That there weren’t rattlesnakes up here but the horned serpent from the mythology jipijka’m, the horned serpent?  How do you say it?  

MB:      What are you calling it? (laughter) I don’t know what you’re saying.

TS:      [looks through paper and laughing together while looking for the term] I get these things in my head, and I write them down.  There are all these…I have been reading in Silas Rand, you know?

BB:       I’ve heard Bernie’s got a book out.

MB:      I ordered mine.

TS:      What did he write on?

MB:     He’s got Pacifique’s grammar. It’s a grammar book–Pacifique’s grammar.  He has it written. It was originally written by Pacifique in French in his Pacifique system.  So now they’ve translated it into English and the Smith-Francis system.

TS:      Yeah, we have that picture—it’s probably Bernie’s. I haven’t looked at it yet.  [TS shows the picture of Pacifique she had gotten from Wagmatcook]

BB:       Wow!

MB:     Where’d you get this?

BB:      At the School.

MB:      What school?

TS:        Wagmatcook.

MB:      Yeah? From the Wagmatcook School.  Do you have a whole lot of this, or did they get a lot of this?

TS:        They had a stack of them.

MB:     R.P. Pacifique. Wowee, look at that. My mother would remember this guy. He was hanging around still until 1934.

TS:       Was he really?  I was trying to remember.  My memory is the 1800s.

MB:      My mother was born in 1913. She remembers.

TS:        What did she think of him?

MB:      No, she was 1911.  She had all kinds of nice things to say about this guy. This guy was next to a saint in the books and minds of the people.

BB:       I find a lot of people today are going away from the church even in Whycocmagh. I’ve seen a lot of people just going away from the church because of (inaudible) because of the stories, because of the residential schools, about slavery… (inaudible)

MB:      But the thing that bothers me, that troubles me, for all of them is that, rather than searching for the core of their own spirituality, they’re picking up things that they know nothing about.

BB:       Picking up other traditions.

MB:      They’re picking up sort of the Native Plains traditions, which people raised and grown up in it, have a deeper understanding and sense of what it all is and means and its rituals and so on. So, it’s like picking up any religion at its’ surface and just using it because, “I don’t like that. I think I’ll take this surface religion and play with it for a while.” But, when the time for spirituality is needed, maybe it’s  when you are dying or when you have somebody dies, then you’re sort of lost because you don’t know really if this is the core, this prayer that you’re offering really makes even sense to you, cause it doesn’t, cause it’s not something you were raised in. So, I think that what people need to do is to really search through the religion that they were raised in and to sort out what is Mi’kmaq, what is tribal, what is the source…what is truly Mi’kmaq in the philosophy and the view of it, and how does that differ from a doctrinal Catholic. And I think that you see very, very strong differences because we aren’t doctrinal Catholics. We are Mi’kmaw Catholics and it comes from the blending of what we had in the old days with what we understood this new one to be. And I think that it is very dangerous or troublesome or unadvisable to just drop it all, brush yourself off, and go find something else that you can pick up on its surface just to use to try to build the notion that I’ve been wronged by those Catholic missionaries, you know?

BB:       Growing up, my grandfather used to say that there is no devil. And I often wondered, if there is no devil, I told him “Why?’ And he would tell me that the missionaries brought over the devil so that they could convert the Indians so that they would become Christians. And I told him that there must be some kind of form of evil. And he said, “Yeah, there are some form of evil [child shouting in background] pouins, wizards? How would you describe pouins – someone who can put a curse on you. That’s the definition he gave me of evil. And the thing is, my grandfather, and even my mother, they never forced me to go to church, to attend mass, or even say prayers because my mother came from a residential school and she didn’t like sisters, nor she didn’t like priests. That’s why my grandparents, cause they had to lose their kids just to go to residential school, and it was run by the Federal government and the Catholics. So, we were never forced to go to church, or attend church, you know? Until I got married to Doodie. Here she goes to church every Sunday. I’m not used to it, eh? I never seen that at home. I never even bother going to church but she goes to church every Sunday.

TS:       Here’s jipijka’m. [TS finds the word]

[MB and BB try to figure out the word.]

MB:      Does it make sense to you?  

BB:      No

MB:      Jipitkus… jump and shout for joy….(laughter and joking)

BB:       It would have to be some kind of creature, wouldn’t it?

TS:       It’s translated as “horned serpent.”

BB:       Where did you pick up that information? From the “Six Worlds”, that little book?

TS:        Ruth Whitehead’s? It might have been that and also Rand has it in his translations too.

BG:      Is there anybody doing any effective work with the Mik’maw Native spirituality, sort of the Mi’kmaq part of the Mik’maw Catholic?

BB:       There’s a few around town. I would take you if you wanted to go see somebody.

BG:      That would happen sort of like outside of the church proper wouldn’t it? I mean the priest wouldn’t…

BB:       It has nothing to do with the priest. You’re looking at a traditional way, somebody going through it culturally, or Mi’kmaw Indian. way..I don’t know how you would describe it … (inaudible)

BG:       You were saying in Wycogomaugh, people were pulling away Catholic church. Do they have an alternative like that to turn there or such as there is here Eskasoni?

BB:       Well Eskasoni too, there’s are people who do not believe in the Catholic church. There’s a few everywhere. You can’t just say Wycogomaugh, there’s elsewhere too.

BG:      You seem to be saying that when they leave the church they just seem to be dumping everything. But, you’re saying that they don’t have to dump everything but there is this alternative.

BB:       Yeah. There is a way. If you are interested, we can go visit somebody if you want.

TS:        Who’s that?

BB:       I would go see John Lafford. That would give them a Native point of view. [Marie and Barry laugh] I would take you to John Lafford.

TS:        Would we talk about Catholicism?

BB:       Well, Mi’kmaq. Or whatever. There is a mixture. I find there’s a mixture. There’s the Objiway tradition, there’s a Mi’kmaw tradition, a Prairies tradition.  There are some traditions I’ve never even heard. There’s some traditions I’m even surprised.

MB:      I mean Aboriginal and Native peoples across Canada and the United States, and South America and everywhere, have their own traditions, and they have their own different ways of doing things. And, that’s why I find it so troublesome that we borrow so readily, you know, when we don’t know what it is we’re borrowing, or what meaning it has to us. And usually it doesn’t have any meaning except for whatever new meaning is brought in. And so that brings about a whole change in the consciousness of the people. And I think that we haven’t even sorted out what our consciousness is as a people without those things, as to bring in all kinds of new things which confuse our new youth who are coming up and are confused by everything anyway, and there is nothing really to hold on to and to treasure that as part of their own identity. And pretty soon, I sense that as we do that, we begin to change a whole lot of things and no longer are we the same, which we will never be, but basically, I feel (sighs) I don’t know that Elders haven’t laid it all out for us yet.

TS:        Have they been asked to would you say? Or, is that not appropriate?

MB:      I don’t know. I mean, I guess it takes time. There’s been a period of cultural discontinuity as a result of boarding schools, as a result of Christianity, as a result of Federal intervention and policy. And those three things have affected us so dramatically in everything that, you know, we continue to work with the Federal government who is the same government that did what they did to us in boarding schools. Yet we blame the priests and missionaries and church because of what was done by the few during that time. And so, it just seems like if we are going ply (apply?) things, we should apply (inaudible) it unilaterally and try and get rid of all of those things, and all of those influences and get back to the core. Or, rather than trying to fragment ourselves even more.

BB:       Big job.

MB:      Yeah

[Break in tape after some joking about Trudy being tired, offer for her to crash for a while.  Annie Battiste, Marie’s mother, joins us.]

MB:      At Chapel Island and Pe’stiawa’taqatimk are two times when they Ko’jua. So, what she wants to know is at Chapel Island Mission, when did they dance? What was the…when did they know when it was time to dance?

AB:      When they had meetings.

TS:       You mean between the chiefs or, when the chiefs would meet?

AB:      Yes.  I remember that at one time they had a big tipi, you know, and all these big shots, you know like the chiefs and all that are all gathered around that tipi, big tipi, and then after their meeting, I think they’re dancing that Ko’jua, whatever that is, Ko’jua like they used to do like beating drums and stuff like that, chanting or something and dancing. But women’s don’t allow to go in, just…or children or women… just the men.

TS:        When was this? 18…

AB:      Oh, that was a long time ago.

TS:        Like 1920 or something?

AB:      About…I’m 80 now and I was just a little girl. I remember I was a little girl when they used to do that. It must have been about 70 years ago, 80 years…70 years ago, something like that. And they been doing that for a long time until I was uh…Oh, they must have been doing that for a long time. Just don’t remember when they stopped doing it.

TS:        The priests weren’t there for that, were they?

AB:      No, the priest wasn’t there, no. And…just the men, the chiefs, you know?  And, I don’t know what they were talking about in there.

TS:        Was your father a chief?  

AB:      No, he wasn’t. No, he wasn’t. I don’t know if he ever go in there, too, himself.  Just the ones, those big shots, chiefs, you know, Captains and all that. Yeah. I don’t know what they were talking about inside there and they have meeting, big meeting. Yeah. And my father never said because he never went in…he might go into listen, but I don’t know, but I never heard him talking about it. I remember that a long, long time ago. And what else do you want to know?

TS:       I thought during the mission that sometimes there was dancing for fun.

AB:       Well, yeah. There used to be dancing, like you know like square dancing too. There was a Glebe house there, a big Glebe house. The priest would stay there overnight, and eat over there, and all that stuff, and then in the night time, the last mission, they said everybody would be gone tomorrow, like.  And, they used to have dances. People, they are all around the tipis and all that, you know, but inside there’s a Glebe house there, and (inaudible) and a fiddler came around and there was square dancing. And young people…I used to be square dancing too, myself when I was young. So, we used to have like celebration, you know. It was very nice at that time—we thought it was very nice,

TS:        I missed what you said around the tipi? What was that around the tipi?

AB:      Well, that was the…in that big tipi, the men there at the meeting, and that’s the time they had the war (indistinct) dancing, tu’s what do you call it…what they call the Ko’jua. I don’t know what they call it in English. I don’t know but they called it the Ko’jua and they’ll be dancing around in bare ground there inside the tipi.

MB:      Inside the tipi or outside?

AB:       Inside the tipi.  (MB: The big…?)  The big tipi, and you can see all these track marks around the area.

MB:      And so, they would be doing it inside, huh?

AB:       Inside.  And I just told her the kids wasn’t allowed, or women wasn’t allowed to go in that meeting. They’re just all big shots, Captains and Chiefs.

MB:      But then afterwards, they would come outside?  Or, would it be before or after that they would do the handshaking and they would dance, he would dance around. What they call that?

AB:       Well, I don’t know Marie. I don’t know about the handshaking.

MB:      Remember where there’s a picture in the…there’s a picture in one of our calendars, old calendars…remember that picture?

AB:      Oh my goodness, that must have been before my time. That must be before my time they used to do that. All I remember, they never had the handshaking and doing that. But that must be a long time ago. Must have been about 100 year before me.

MB:      (Inaudible)

AB:      No, Ko’jua

MB:      No, the [indistinct: Dancesquaw?] was something that went with the handshaking and they would do a small, they would do a little dance or a little step.  And all the men would be sitting outside the tipi, and I don’t know whether that was before they went in the tipi or at the end of the meeting when they’d come out.

AB:       Oh, that’s before my time. I never see them doing that. (MB: No?) No. That’s a long time ago.

MB:      Everything was in the tipi by the time you were here, huh? Everything was in the tipi, right?

AB:      Inside the tipi, yeah.  So, I don’t remember what they were doing outside because they are inside the tipi.

MB:      Yeah, Lillian used to tell me about that. Lillian Marshall.

TS:        Was that the Chiefs that used to come out and shake hands?

MB:     Well, all the men who are a part of this—I guess it would be the Captains (AB: Captains and Chiefs) and Captains and Chiefs and so on, and there is a picture of them sitting outside the wikuom, you know, at the front of the wikuom. And, what would happen, the guy would come out of the wikuom and he would do a step as he went around shaking the hands of everyone one of the people. Again, I don’t know whether it is at the end or the beginning of the meeting.

AB:     I never seen them (inaudible)

TS:      I think I read a little about that. There is one description where the chief comes out and just does one or two steps (MB: Yeah, that’s it). Yeah, it starts—the translation I have (laughs)—I find the word is something like Seskewet (Marie searching for a term). Is that right? Close?

MB:      Yah! Yah! Yah, Yah, that’s it. Yah, that’s what I was trying to say. What was that word? Say it again.

TS:       Well, I don’t know if I am saying it right, but I think it was something like Seskewet.  It started with an “s” 

MB:      (trying to sound out what the word might be). Seskewet?

AB:      Neskawet? 

MB:      Neskawet! That’s…

AB:      Neskawet.

MB:      Now, what’s Neskawet?

AB:      I don’t know.

MB:      Neskawet, that’s it! Neskawet.

AB:       I heard that before but I don’t know what Neskawet is but I know…

TS:        Somebody said, I think it was yesterday, somebody said that was to welcome outsiders in…Who said that yesterday? Where was I? I forgot who said. They said they did the Neskewet around when outsiders…

AB:      I heard that name before, whatever that is…Neskawet. I don’t know how to say it in English or what they do…You can’t pronounce it after Marie couldn’t pronounce it. (Laughter).  The Neskawet.

TS:       So, you were not taught by your mother or your father any dances other than square dances?

AB:      Well, they used to square dance, yeah, and square dance.  Yeah.

TS:        Would you call square dancing Mi’kmaw dancing now?

AB:       Mi’kmaw dances, no.  Mi’kmaw dances, you know, what the Ko’jua is. Yeah, but the square dancing, just like what other white people doing, square dancing. Yeah.  I used to like dance when I was young.

TS:        The square dances?

AB:      Yeah

TS:       Did you do the Christmas one, (Pestie’wa’taqtimk)—the naming where they went to peoples’ houses to honor their names? Did you do that?

AB:       No, I never do it because I was so young.  But I used to follow with my mother and my father and my brothers.  I followed them, you know?  We didn’t have no babysitters so we followed them going to those places, you know?  They dance, and then they dance (inaudible) and then then they eat, and then I follow them (inaudible).  I was just a little girl, you know?  I didn’t dance. And, I never seen my mother dance but I see my father dance like that, dance with the crowd (indistinct) but my mother never, just watch.

TS:       But, did other women dance?

AB:      Yeah, oh yes. No, my mother didn’t dance, but the other women danced.  Some did not. Yeah. They still do.  A lot of women now, and they do have some celebrations, they dance.

TS:      Yah, there were women dancing yesterday. Different steps than the men.

AB:       Now, what else do you want to know? (Laughter)

TS:        Did your father ever talk about the ceremonies?

AB:      No, he never talk about it. No. But, my brother and I, we always followed them going out.

MB:      Did people learn by just watching?

AB:      Oh yes.  People learned by watching. There is no big deal about that (laughter). 

MB:      Did they have drums?

AB:      Well, they all made drums, I think, homemade drums…they found anything they can hold (inaudible). Whatever made noise.  

MB:     But there wasn’t the skins over the kind of drum like Ln’u and like  like out west. Did they have any of those? Western drums or any big drums?

AB:     No. 

MB:      No? No one sat at the drum  (AB: No, No.) and beat it like this?

AB:      No, someone used to tap on his soles and all that, you chanting. Anything that can get the…but I never see any drums. Just lately.

MB:      So the ji’kmaqn was the major, kind of…

AB:      Yeah, ji’kmaqn

TS:       What about chanting or singing?

AB:     Yeah, chanting, you know. (indistinct: “They are pounding like that” and starts pounding on the table).  Anything you can get hold of that makes noise. But I never see any drums long time ago.

TS:        Was the chanting for Ko’jua always the same chant? 

AB:      Always the same. (TS: Always the same?) Always the same.  No difference at all. Yeah. They’re dancing the (inaudible)

MB:      I guess it was Peter Googoo who shows two different kinds of dancing. Um, one was one where you would be kicking your heals, sort of, together. Do you remember that? (AB: No).  Do you remember when they would sort of…

AB:       Oh, that’s what they’re doing, that’s the real Ko’jua. That’s the real Ko’jua—doing like that, kicking the heals, like that, like that. That’s the real Ko’jua.

MB:      So ,what’s this other thing they are doing, that’s sort of more like a shuffle as opposed to a kicking of the heals, is something new?

AB:      No

MB:      Like the way Margaret dances is different from the way in which Checker dances.

AB:       Well, they can dance anyway they like, I guess.

MB:      But, I mean, the truly original way to dance would be like the way Checker dances? 

AB:       I guess so, yeah. You know, kicking your heels like that? (AB demonstrates). That’s the way they—ever since I remember, that’s the way they danced. They would say good dancer, everybody saying that, “that’s good dancer”. Everybody saying that. Some of them just walk along, you know, that’s not very good. But, you know, they just, the other way to dancing (inaudible)

AB:      I never could dance that way myself.  I don’t know why.

MB:      Maybe that’s why I can’t either (Laughter). I don’t do it.

TS:       Did your husband dance Ko’jua?

AB:       Yeah. Yeah. My husband. My husband used to dance, yeah. When he was in his younger days, but when he was getting older, he didn’t dance. When he was (in) his younger days, he used to dance. He used to dance all kinds of dances. Four cross? the waltz, and then step dancing…stuff like that…he used to dance when he was younger. Yeah.

TS:        So, you said there is a reak Ko’jua, when you were talking about the heels?

AB:       Yeah [Marie comes in]

MB:      I see different people doing a different kind of thing nowadays. Um, for example, I…[AB starts to mention Sarah (Sarah Denny)] Joey Gould’s dance is one kind and then there is another kind that moves with the heels touching together. Sort of like the heels seem to be moving together, you know the heels seem to be…(TS: I haven’t seen that.)

AB:      That’s Ko’jua; that’s Ko’jua

MB:      I know!  That is what I am saying. But there are people like Sarah (Denny) who dance differently. And Margaret dances differently. And Checker dances differently.

AB:       They make their own dancing …(indistinct)… I guess

MB:      I guess that is what I am saying.  Which of those ways that are danced would be the way which is the original Ko’jua?

AB:       Well, I don’t know.

MB:      I have at the school, Barry had, we have a tape of the spring concert in which there are Sarah’s dancers dancing, and all in their outfits, and several people from the school also have joined into the dance, you know, Ko’jua, and the other dances. And so, on tape, you can watch them—you can watch the feet and you see how different, you know—some people aren’t dancing well, some people are dancing well but their dancing well has a little variation to it, so….But I see people like…there is a fellow by the name of William Bernard, and he dances exceptionally well. And he is an Elder in our community and he dances very well, and he is well known for dancing, his dancing. Margaret also, But, Margaret again, but when you see Margaret who we take the Pestie’wa’taqatimk, and he danced and she danced—their dancing is a little different, both of them is a little different, as is Sarah’s. But you don’t ever see Sarah dancing, she is always singing. You don’t ever see her dancing.

TS:        See I have never seen the heels done the way you are talking about in both Sarah’s dancing and Joey’s dancing.  Vivian Basque, Sarah’s daughter, I have never seen that. 

AB:      Did you see those Sarah Denny’s dancers?

TS:        I have it on tape. Now, they do three dances, right? They do the Ko’jua and then they do that one that they go I’ko, you know, they go something like this? (TS shows the steps).

AB:      Different music on. You know, different music.

TS:       Yeah.  Is that Ko’jua?  What dance is that?

AB:      Well, I never seen them dancing that in long (indistinct) times, never.  They make it up, I guess, their own dances. They made it up. All different dances, they made it up. But long time ago they just do one step here like that. You know heels like that. That’s all I remember. But nowadays they dance so many different steps now, different music on, different steps. I think, they made up their own.

TS:        Or do you think different communities maybe had different steps or different styles?

AB:      I imagine the people in the west they dance different too. Cause I see them. I went to California and we went that place there and they were dancing differently. And what they had that big celebration, we went there. What do you call that, going on three days, night and day, remember?

TS:        Pow wow.

AB:       Pow wow, in California. Different places and people there are different dances. They have this drum right in the middle of the… and people all around and then drums and drummers. Every different reserve and pounding that thing and different dances. But still what they call a Ko’jua but still different steps they make (inaudible). They were going on for three nights and three days, all night long. You heard the drums…honest to God.  That time we went there, Marie we went there during the day and you fellows went at night time. It was when Jaime was small, was it?  Jaime was just about a year. This little boy now, eleven, he was about a year and a half old. And Marie and Jim (indistinct) had gone at night time. I said I got enough drums to hear all day long. I said don’t want to go…

TS:        So, you say there is only one chant and one step that you remember ever being… at Chapel Island.  Is that right?  And no different chants?  People would just go and go and go (AB: Go and go) one chant, one dance (AB: Yeah) all night long…

AB:      Yeah, but long time ago, but after that there was square dancing, and the music of the violin, and all that, guitar, and after that the last…Them good old days.

TS:        I suppose I should call Alec. Thank you.

AB:      You’re welcome.

TS:        If you remember anything else, let me know, I’ll turn on the tape recorder (laughter).

AB:     Yes, I will if I remember anything.

TS:        You grew up in Chapel Island though, didn’t you?

AB:       Oh yeah.  Yes.

TS:        That’s what I thought. What did you live in? Was it a house?

AB:      It was a house, yeah. A little house; it wasn’t a very big house.

TS:        Did you go to residential school?

AB:      No, I was going in the reserve. I didn’t go to residential school. Those residential schools abused the kids. I look at the t.v. the other night…from Manitoba. This woman here, she says she was there for nine years and all she got was beaten, abused and raped and all that. And, she says she got beaten and she went to school and the teacher told her to sit down and she says she can’t sit down because she got all these sores and all that. And, she said, she stand up and said, “I can’t sit down” and the principal come along, and she said the principal come along, she says, just pushed me to the chair. You know, the seat?  I said, “uh, oh”.  And all of a sudden blood was just dripping on her legs and all that. And this woman Shirley was asking questions on t.v., you know this, and she says, “I feel like crying” or something like that, “as I see the children… She said, “I saw one child got murdered.”  She said, “Did you actually see that kid when they murdered?”  “Yeah. There was somebody run over on the road.  Me and another girl was walking on the road and this car come along and just run over the kid.” And then the man, this Chief was there, Fontaine, that’s Manitoba Indian Chief, and he said, “I was in that place for nine years, and I got abused, raped and all that.  It was awful,” he said.  And this Shirley asked him, “What do you want now?” He said, “All we want is that community, to apology to the government to the Indian government from that school, whatever, to have apology to say that we are sorry about what we’ve been doing for a long time.

TS:        It’s amazing that the Mi’kmaw people I’ve met are so wonderful after…when you hear about all this, you wonder how…

AB:      Now Shubenacadie here, me and my husband, we was going away, and then I took Eleanor, Eleanor the oldest one. I talk to her now, and I took her to Shubenacadie because my husband said “We’re going to Maine now.”  We only lived in Eskasoni there for a year and he didn’t make any money.  He was cutting pulp or doing something, didn’t make…staying over at my cousin’s house, he was alone. And then, this little girl, she was six, seven years old, seven years old, and they said don’t bring anything, her clothes, just whatever she got on. And she’s clean and she…I remember what she was wearing…a little grey pleated skirt, white blouse, and yellow sweater, shoes, white shoes and all that.   They said, “That’s all. Don’t bring her clothes,” and took that little girl to Shubenacadie.  My husband and I went away for Maine. My husband said, “Well, we’re going to take Eleanor to that school because it’s a good school, people saying it’s a good school.”  And, she was there for seven

[Tape ends. Unfortunately, the second tape is missing.]