The following interview is with Noel Doucette, Community Development Officer and later Chief of the Potlotek, or Chapel Island First Nation, in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. It was conducted at the Band Office in Potlotek on January 9, 1992 by Trudy Sable as part of a Canadian Parks Service, Atlantic Region, Traditional Sources Study to document and develop themes relating to Mi’kmaw historical presence in Federal Parks throughout the Maritimes. This research was written up in a report entitled, Traditional Sources Study, and submitted to Canadian Parks Service Atlantic Region on February 28th, 1992. The archiving of this and other interviews was sponsored by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre in Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding from the department of Canadian Heritage Aboriginal Language Initiatives Program awarded in 2018.

ND:      I have a particular interest and knowledge of to 28:31 Chapel Island, eh? I’m sort of trying to promote it.

ND:      I don’t know, Parks Canada. I am a bit disappointed with Parks Canada in terms of Native participation. Reason being, at one time at Fortress Louisburg, that was a growing concern, and they did hire Native people as, dressed up in uniform, and it provided quite a bit of summer employment for our high school, college students. And when they started cutting costs, naturally, that was the first program they dropped. Now, we have a park in St. Peter’s, and as far as I know, there’s never been a Native person hired to work there, eh? And they’re pointing out quite often the importance of St. Peter’s in terms of the history of this area and are overlooking the reasons for the history of St. Peter’s being so important, and that’s Chapel Island. If it weren’t for, I guess if it weren’t for the large number of Indians here in the 1500, 1600, 1700s, there wouldn’t have been any reason for Saint Pedro there to be established. Back, I don’t know when—it must have been 25 or 30 years ago—we approached Parks Canada about the possibility of turning Chapel Island into a national historic site.

TS:        Oh I didn’t know you actually approached them.

ND:      Yeah, we had approached them. I think there used to be a Dr. Munroe or someone from North Sydney that was going to be one of the heads of Parks Canada at the time. And they gave us several excuses why it shouldn’t be a park.

TS:        A park or a site? There’s a lot different…

ND:      Site, yeah. Site. And a park. The island is 112 acres. It’s, you know, located in a beautiful area and there’s no reason why it could not have served both purposes.  In fact, I have a study here somewhere indicating— that’s when DevCo was first formed, I believe around ‘67 or thereabouts. We did a major study and they said, “No”.  They told us several reasons why we shouldn’t have a site here and then a year or so later they established that site in St. Peters. They established a museum in St. Peter’s.  This is, you know, well and good, and since then we haven’t approached them for that but just lately now, this last month or so, we’ve talked about the possibility of establishing a museum right on the reserve here. In fact , that old building right across the road there is an old building.

TS:        I think I saw it coming in, yeah.

ND:      That man was gonna tear it down and a group on this reserve decided that they don’t tear it down; it’s the old school, the first Indian day school in the province.

TS:        It’s the first Indian day school?

ND:      Yeah, yeah.

TS:        Run by Indians or run by Mi’kmaq?

ND:      It was run by Indian Affairs (inaudible)… And uh, so they put sort of a moratorium on tearing it down, and the group are now trying to find some resources to establish a small museum for not only for education, but reserve wise, but also connections with Chapel Island. But as far as I’m concerned, this is one of the oldest historic sites in North America that is still in use today. Chapel Island was established in 1738 as a religious site and it still exists today.  People still come to it. It’s the oldest known Indian historic site, religious historic site in North America that’s still in use. Prior to 1738, it used to be the gathering place of the eastern, or the Wabanaki Confederacy.

TS:        Chapel Island was? Okay.

ND:      There’s more to it than just being a mission site.

TS:        Right. That’s what I was wondering.

ND:      We have visitors there in the vicinity of anywhere from three to seven thousand annually that come to Chapel Island twice a year, really.

TS:        Oh, twice a year? There’s Saint Anne’s day, and there’s…

ND:      There’s Pentecost Sunday, there’s quite a gathering there.

TS:        Oh I see. When is that?

ND:      It’s usually around May, in May. At one time we used to have a gathering on the island on November 1^st and 2^nd, but that’s been discontinued the last, probably the last 35 years because of weather I guess. I think the fact that it’s on an island is probably a valid reason for safety. But there’s another major, major site, you know in Wycocomagh (We’koqma’q).

TS:        Oh, there is? Which one’s that?

ND:      It’s the portage. You know, that’s where they portaged from the great Bras D’or lakes into the little Bra D’or lakes.

TS:        Oh, I see. And what took place there?

ND:      Well actually all of it is, is people from Wycocmagh (We’koqma’q) and Wagmatcook (Waqmɨtkuk) used to come to Chapel Island for the two-week festival here, and they would portage across that short piece of land, rather than go around towards Baddeck there and come around. But somebody’s since established a house on it and a farm and won’t allow Indians to pass through that narrow strip of land, but that’s uh, it’s a site that was a portage that was used even prior to what’s his name there in 1492.

TS:        Chris? (Laughs)

ND:      So it is a rather, it’s an important place in the history of Cape Breton. Not to mention the place that they’re talking about dynamiting.

TS:        In Kelly’s Mountain?

ND:      The Kluskap caves.

ND:      There should be more emphasis on the park. This probably is something you should’ve read before turning the tape on, but it just gives a brief history of Chapel Island. So, I think Parks Canada’s reason for not wanting a site was the fact that people still live on that island. At least they have small cabins or whatnot.

TS:        Will you clarify something for me? Which is, when you talk about approaching Parks, did you want them to make the island itself into a historic area?

ND:      Yeah.

TS:        But it’s reserve lands. You’re not talking about Parks owning the land; you’re talking about it being recognized. Is that right?

ND:      Recognized, yeah.

TS:        Yeah. You don’t want Parks to come in and own the land, you know/

ND:      Well, in effect, it’s federal property, it’s federal land, even though it’s part of this reserve. Our reserve doesn’t, you know, it’s used as the Mecca or the gathering site of the Mi’kmaw nation.

TS:        But don’t you have jurisdiction over it or not?

ND:      We do, to a certain extent. But actually, it’s something that’s, uh…We have what they call a Grand Council, the Grand Council of Mi’kmaq that dictates what happens on Chapel Island.

TS:        On the island itself or on the reserve?

ND:      On the island itself.

TS:        Okay, so…

ND:      It’s an unwritten law that the island, while it’s part of our reserve and belongs to us from Chapel Island reserve  here, it’s uh, its ownership is with all the Mi’kmaw Nation.

TS:        Okay, that’s important for me to know. I wouldn’t know that.

ND:      Yeah, in other words…If you as a Mi’kmaw, a visitor to this reserve and decided you’re gonna put a cabin on Chapel Island, there’s nothing that this band will say to you that you can’t do. You fulfill the criteria, you’re a member of the Mi’kmaw nation and this is your, this is your holy site and you are here.

TS:        No, that’s good to know, I didn’t know that. I was talking to Alec Denny yesterday and he’s the one that mentioned the whole Chapel Island area and I was surprised, I thought that it would be an area that you would not want Parks to come, you know, into. And he said no, they’re very interested in developing that as a historic site that, uh, you know museum.

ND:      Yeah. In fact, Alec Denny had approached me—he’s now the Grand Captain. (Helped?) me to see if there is some way that Chapel Island can be preserved. In fact, I just returned from Mexico a month ago to specifically, other than going there for spiritual reasons, I went to visit that shrine they have there in Guadalupe (and Diego?). To see if some of those ideas would fit into some of the things that could be and should be done at Chapel Island.

TS:        Did you get some ideas?

ND:      I think I have to return again, hopefully with a group of people from here. I did get a lot of ideas. I could see the significance of what they were doing there, and I also saw how they were able to do it because they had the backing of the church and the Mexican government and uh, and then the fact that our Lady appeared there had quite a bearing on it.

TS:        So that’s a Christian site? That’s what I’m also interested in is it, um, I’m just sort of concerned, I have all this stuff (laughs)..that um, Alec was also talking about—there were a lot of things that I’m coming into contact with.  One are sort of the Mi’kmaq that are trying to return to more traditional, pre-contact, spiritual practices. Then there are those like Alec who feel as though the Mi’kmaw way of practicing Catholicism is very much their tradition now, and the whole mission at Saint Anne’s brings that, the whole Catholic religion into focus too, and the importance of that to make that history. Is that how you, how would you want to see Chapel Island presented?

ND:      History books says we may have been pagans before 1600s when missionaries arrived. But we had our own religion that was almost identical to the beliefs of the Catholic church, I guess. We believed even though we talk about the great spirit, which is, some other people call him God, but it’s the same thing. We believe that there was a supreme being, which is what the Catholic church believed.  And that the Indians were aware that the moon wasn’t there because uh Mulroney or somebody decided it was gonna be there; there was a greater being… the stars and the sun, and so that religious types of beliefs are still in Mi’kmaw paganism, they call it but it was a form of Christianity.

TS:        So it’s more a shifting in terms, you’re saying

ND:      Yeah, there for a while we said our prayers in Latin and then now it’s English.  As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, we’ve been having mass in Mi’kmaw for a couple hundred years as a result of Chapel Island.  And, unfortunately, the last ten or twenty years our language has been eroding. A lot of natives, like Alec Denny, myself to a certain extent, I guess, and others are aware that we have to do something to regain our language. That’s one of the things I’m just doing now; I just finished up this Sunday. I made a tape of the rosary in Mi’kmaw.

TS:        Oh, you did? 

ND:      I finished it, yeah. A few little things I have to do now is to put some musical background to it.

TS:        What kind of music will it be?

ND:      We’re gonna have the traditional organ or violin music but it sounded kind of, not boring, but just to have a person reciting prayers—there should be some sacred music in the back. It was mainly done for uh, not so much for Indians but for non-Mi’kmaw speaking person to listen to the music and understand what prayers are being recited, so.

TS:        Oh, non-Mi’kmaw. I see. Have to hear that. (laughs)

ND:      I have the tape, but it’s…

TS:        I won’t get off of that now, that’s my own interest. (laughs) I’ve been studying the Mi’kmaw history for a couple years now.  Anyway, back to Chapel Island. So you would like to see…What  sort of ideas have you thought of specifically that you’d like…

ND:      Well, we have a shrine there, we have a historic site there that’s probably, as I mentioned, the oldest in North America, and it should be maintained more as a park atmosphere than just an island where you camp. So, there’s no reason why Parks Canada can’t come in with some of their funding to sort of restore it and keep it up, and, you know, working with the Native people in doing it. They do spend fortunes on maintaining that canal, for an example, and no doubt Louisburg. And this island, in fact, has a heavy connection with what happened in Louisburg in 1740s or 50s, whatever the dates were.

TS:        How so?

ND:      1758, a lot of the soldiers that escaped from Louisburg lived at Chapel Island.

TS:        Oh, I didn’t know that.

ND:     Yeah, that’s where they sought refuge and in fact, some of the artifacts that they escaped with from Louisburg ended up at Chapel Island.

TS:        Are they still some in…

ND:      Unfortunately, we had a fire in ’76, and everything was destroyed with the exception of the altar, and that’s in Johnstown Church now.

TS:        What sort of artifacts were there?

ND:      We had pictures and the altar chalices…

[End of tape]

TS:        They said that one thing that’s not recognized is that the Mi’kmaq were responsible for the continuity of Catholicism in Nova Scotia after some of the missionaries were kicked with the English, you know.

ND:      I don’t know if the Bishop eluded to that in that book, or in that Kluskap writing, but certainly the book, The History of the Catholic Church in Eastern Nova Scotia, by Johnson, A. A.  Johnson, he eludes to that quite a bit. And whoever said that he’s right, if it wasn’t for the Mi’kmaq’s Father Mallard, I don’t think you’d have very many Catholics left in Nova Scotia. In fact, the Diocese of Antigonish was established from a base on Chapel Island in the early 1700s. That’s where the missionaries stayed while they were establishing the parishes in Arichat, East Bay and so on (around the island?).

TS:        Is there somewhere I can read this, you know, is there a particular resource that you use?

ND:      Yeah, well that book, AA Johnsons book, there’s two volumes of it and the early parts deal with the early history of Chapel Island. I don’t know if this little book I have, it may give you some information. Unfortunately, I can’t give it to you; it’s the only one I have. But certainly, if you’re doing this, Peter Christmas will probably have some information on his file that could probably be available. This was the commemoration of the first Mi’kmaw Catholic in Nova Scotia, Membertou. That was done, I forget what year, 1985 is it? when we celebrated the…In fact this year is sort of a centennial of sorts. It’ll be 250 years this summer that the first mass was celebrated on Chapel Island.

TS:        I heard that, I’m hoping to come if that’s alright.

ND:      1738 was when the first missionary arrived, but they didn’t actually say mass until 1742, so it makes it kind of a special event.

TS:        Noel, If I paid for the copies, would I be able to copy this?

ND:      No, I’ll copy that stuff for you, you don’t have to pay for it.

TS:        Thought I’d offer. (laughs)

ND:      I think I have access to…

TS:        Oh, that would be great. This’d be just wait I need, this sort of information. This is wonderful. Who put this together?

ND:      This was put together by the Mi’kmaw Association of Cultural Studies.

TS:        So, under Peter Christmas?

ND:      Peter Christmas, yeah. There’s a lady there, Sarah Denny.

TS:        Oh, Sarah Denny? The chanter?

ND:      Yeah, she works with the Association, she’s quite well versed or knowledgeable on Chapel Island. She’s formally from here.

TS:        I was just at her son’s house yesterday, two days ago. Joel.

ND:      Joel, yeah.

TS:        I just saw Sarah in Eskasoni. I haven’t approached her partly because I feel she’s so busy and I know so many people ask her so much.

ND:      She’d only be too glad I think. In fact, she’s my wife’s sister, so.

TS:        Oh, really? All right. I was talking to Joel yesterday, I’d love to talk to her, I have one interview of her. It’s too bad I didn’t stop here before I went up there. Everybody, I know, respects her very much.

ND:      Yeah, she can give you a lot of insights.

TS:        Well I’m going to be back up there, well not until June… I’ll think about that.  Well, what about St. Peters Canal area? Do you see how that itself…

ND:      Well, St. Peters Canal is the old portage, I guess, of people going from the Bras D’or into mainland Nova Scotia. It’s a local (inaudible) from here, but uh… I’ve done a bit of, not work, but I’m trying to, in a sense, promote Chapel Island. I guess this is one of the last things I’ve done.

            [TS and ND look through some documents]

TS:        I wish I could see this, I wish I could go there.  Santé Mawiomi is that the…

ND:      Santé Mawiomi; it’s a gathering of Saint Anne.

TS:       That’s what that means? That’s really helpful.

ND:      My job here—this is what I’ve been trying to promote here, you know a lot of Indian people unfortunately have that belief, and I’m not saying it’s wrong, just that you shouldn’t capitalize on the ‘Our Father’, you shouldn’t capitalize on your religion. But you also have to look at another angle of it, which is what I’m looking at. We have 7,000 or 8,000 guests here some years and naturally what that one is all about they have…they require some services and…

TS:        Well I think what Alec was telling me was he wasn’t against development, he was against it on the island itself. And that was, I guess that seemed to be a debate where if you have services and stuff…

ND:      Yeah, that’s uh, I don’t disagree with him whatsoever, eh? But certainly, if you’re going to live on the island, you certainly need good water if you’re gonna live on the island. Like right now we have 171 camps there, or cabins, permanent ones, or semi-permanent, and there’s no sewage disposal of any type other than 3 or 4 run-down outhouses. You know, that type of stuff should be looked at. We have no wharfs, what you’d call wharfs that are safe for people to land in. We have no electricity there, people use gas lamps and my concern is if some of these cabins that are a foot apart, if we have a fire as we had in ’76, it could wipe out the whole island possibly. So, there’s all kinds of reasons for sitting down and talking about improvements. If you’re going to be attending religious functions outside and walking and stuff like that there should be clearly marked trails so they’re not wading in a foot of water type of thing, eh? So, for that reason, people come to Chapel Island from other reserves for really two reasons. A lot of people come for various spiritual reasons(?), which is great, eh? But you have to accept the fact that this is 1992, 250 years since the first mission. Some people want to get away and have a vacation, you know? And if they’re doing it all well and good, eh? But I guess where Alec coming from, if you’re coming here on for vacation don’t interfere with those people that are praying. But there’s no reason why the two cannot be blended together.

TS:        Well I think he’s talking more about commercial enterprises. You know, hawking souvenirs and setting up restaurants and things like that. You know, I think he’s not for that, if that sort of thing can happen on the mainland.

ND:      Yeah, but where I’m coming from too, it has to happen. It’s inevitable. Like, my wife was in Yugoslavia last…

TS:        Where?

ND:      Yugoslavia, Medjugorje there, last May. And she went there for spiritual reasons as well, but she didn’t like the commercialization of what was happening there, but she does, you know we have to accept the fact that it’s inevitable, eh? Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré in Quebec if one has been there, eh? You talk about your commercialization and I guess nobody likes it, eh? But if I come here as an Indian to Saint Anne, I wanna go back with something to those that were unable to come and where can I get it, you know? I can’t buy holy water from Chapel Island in St. Peter’s, or I can’t get it.  I have to go to Chapel Island. Who’s making it available? This is where that, so if you wanna call it commercialization to a certain extent, it has to happen. There’s no getting away from it. But to keep it pure, as it was in another article I have here I have, uh…I’m guessing I have an extra copy of this, I believe I do.

TS:        I think I might have this. Who’s this written by, do you know?

ND:      I forget now. I just got, uh…

TS:        What year?

ND:      You’ll have to excuse me a minute. All this tea I’ve been drinking…

[Short break]

ND:      I’ve been doing quite a bit of things for Chapel Island. In fact, I told you what I did in Mexico too. You know, and I didn’t like running away from all these peddlars and what have you, but I did come back with $1,000 worth of souvenirs if you want  to call them from Guadalupe, or from Mexico. And uh, I would have been somewhat disappointed if I didn’t find what I went there for. So, I think these are the things that…and I think in the letter that you have there from Donna Gould, I guess sort of alludes to the fact that, “Hey, We’re Indians, and we’ve gotta somehow blend these things together in such a fashion.”

TS:        I know, just let me ask you again, I’m going to go to St. Peter’s after this. It seems obvious to me there’s tie in, the two places could, I think in terms of stories, you know, that there’s a story that happened in this whole area. So now after I go here, I’m going to go talk to the historical society at St. Peter’s and see what their sense of history is, and uh, as you said, it was, that whole area was a canal, a portage, and I know Nicholas Denys did a tremendous amount with the Mi’kmaq and trading and his whole thing was based on Mi’kmaq doing work and uh…

ND:      In fact, when he left here, he took a number of Indians with him up to Bathurst, or northern New Brunswick, where he moved to.

TS:        Oh, is that right? So interesting. I was just up there in Papineau.

ND:      Those Mi’kmaq that were originally from here are now with him up there.

TS:        In Papineau?

ND:      Yeah. I have no historical facts to base it upon, but the fact is that if you look at the Indian names of some of these islands, you can pretty well tell. Like we have one island up here called love of the waves island in Mi’kmaw, and I’ve been asking for years what does it mean? What does it mean? Until I was reading a history book somewhere and Labilloais is actually Pluspe’l Aplue’s. There’s a whole group of Indians up in the Bathurst area there named Labillois. And Mi’kmaw is Pluspe’l Aplue’s for Labillois We have a chief Tuma, or Duma, that’s mentioned quite often in history books. There’s no Indians with that surname here. But we do have a Toma’s brook down here which had the original name of Tuma and one of the Grand Chiefs here was named Tuma. And uh, in reading some historical article, Labillois left with an Indian named Tuma so the whole family moved up with him and there’s a lot of Toma’s up in Patineau or the Bathurst area.

TS:        Oh, I was just up there, two weeks ago. (laughs)

ND:      So, he in effect migrated from to follow whatever Denys was doing.

TS:        And he married a Mi’kmaw as well.

ND:      It’s said that he married a lady from here, an Indian lady from Chapel Island. See, at one time, Chapel Island wasn’t just 1300 acres. Chapel Island started at the bottom of Johnstown hill, then went right into River Bourgeois. That was the original reserve…[slight break when phone rings]

Chapel Island has a very interesting history, eh? That’s probably the reason why I bought a computer and have it set up at the house. Just have to learn how to use it now. I have two of them, and unfortunately or fortunately, I’ve had them for a couple years, it’s just my procrastination. But I have eleven kids at home, so.

TS:        Oh, are you serious?

ND:      Not at home, but I have 11 kids that use it, so.

TS:        Uh-huh. All yours? None adopted?

ND:      Yeah. None adopted just yet, anyway. I never really have time to fool around with it like I should. They’re either doing their homework, or a paper. [phone rings]

TS:        In terms of Saint Peters, you could, I mean it seems like…

ND:      There’s quite a tie in. And the fact that the reserve was much larger than what it is now. But that’s another topic, or another…

TS:        When did it get cut back? When did it reduce?

ND:      Over the years. All reserve lands in Canada, I guess, just sort of eroded, eh? There was an interesting book done on this area by a former principal of Johnstown School here. He looked into the history of the Scottish settlers in Richmond County. I had the book, and I loaned it to Sarah Denny, and I’ve been unable to get another copy of it.

TS:        Do you know the title?

ND:      I’m just trying to recall what the title is. If I don’t know somebody at home will know. I know in recent years I’ve been trying to get that book again in (inaudible)

TS:        He did the history of Richmond County?

ND:      He did the history of Richmond county from back in the 1600s or 1700s. There’s all kinds of mentions in there of how the land was taken from the Indians.

TS:        I’ve read a fair amount in general about New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, seen all the letters back and forth with the Colonial Office, talking about encroachment and recommendations to preserve…

ND:      But this book particularly…I have a lot of books at home too, but unfortunately I lend a lot of them away and have no means of keeping track of them. For the past 30 years now I think, I’ve been sort of studying the history on this area particularly. And actually, something that has to be done is a written history of Chapel Island, much more so than that little booklet.

TS:        I have one article out in the car… I am sure you’ve read it. It was written by a young anthropologist I believe in1962 when he came here. Then I have Wallis and Wallis I’m sure you’ve read.

ND:      Yeah. I’ve got that book somewhere too in someone else’s library. (laughs)

TS:        If you want to copy it, I’ve got it. I’ve got the one about the Saint Anne’s day mission. I’ve got it in the car if you wan make your own copy.

ND:      I think uh, I think I did have one of Wallis and Wallis’ book. That was from 1918.

TS:        Yeah, 1911 and then he returned to 1952. When you copy these, I’ll run out and get it and you can see if you want to copy one for yourself. I think I’ve got about 15 pages. I was interested because I was studying the dancing, the Mi’kmaw dancing. It’s a separate personal research project, which is where Sarah Denny (inaudible), I wanted to talk to her.

ND:      Yeah, they also lead some dancing there.

TS:        Yeah. No, that’s really I’m trying to trace…

ND:      I had uh, several of those done. Just since the new year I gave a copy to someone, but I’ll make more copies.

TS:        Well, this is interesting. See what I’m doing, I don’t work for Parks. They contracted me to do this study, so my job is to compile the information, and say this is a site, there’s this sort of history and this is who you should contact. And, are you one of those people if they say gee, this sounds really good, we’d like to work with the Mi’kmaq on this.

ND:      I’ve gotten myself into the position, I don’t know how, yeah. I have an interest in it and know quite a bit about Chapel Island, particularly the recent histories from about ‘45. See I was one of the first altar boys for Chapel Island. Prior to ‘45 there was older men, and I became an altar boy as such, because of that position I was able to sit in on these Grand Council meetings back in the forties.

TS:        Oh really?

ND:      Yeah. While I wasn’t very much interested in what was taking place, I had to sit there and listen and over the years I’ve..certain recollections of what was happening, you understand I was only 8, 9, 10 years old, eh? But I had enough sense at the time to say hey, I remember what happened there. Of course, most of the people that were involved in the Grand Council then are dead, eh?

TS:        Yeah. What was your role as an altar boy? Why were you…

ND:      Well they this Grand Council. They had the Grand Council teepee. They didn’t have it then, but they had the Glebe house. This Grand Council used to meet with the parish priest or the mission priest. It was only men then, no women allowed. They talked about several things. How the mission was run for one, how the general population was getting along in terms of, if someone committed any serious… I wouldn’t say crimes, but uh, they had to be reprimanded or they weren’t conducting themselves in a fashion that a Grand Council member should be. Also, they talked about what service, church leader or a captain in their (inaudible) community, these things were talked about. And I was there purposely because at the end of it they would count the money, and I would be paid 50 cents for the 8 days I served as an altar boy. That was my reason for it. And actually, when all these people were paid, the altar boy was the last to be paid, but I had to sit in there for the 3, 4, 5 hours that they discussed pay.

TS:        Interesting, because the accounts that I read from earlier when it happened in the teepee or wigwam, and there was a dance that occurred. Did that occur in 1945?

ND:      No, there wasn’t that much dancing.

TS:        Anyway, I shouldn’t, that’s a separate thing. (laughs)

ND:      I managed to pick up a lot of oral history, and in later years, if I remember someone had talked about something, I approached them and ask them, let’s talk about, what’s talked about in ’47 or whatever. I got a lot of information back then. And the fact that I was Grand Captain in ’67.

TS:        Of the Council?

ND:      Alec’s position.

TS:        Oh, you did? I thought that was a lifelong…

ND:      I broke tradition by resigning from it. I wasn’t sworn in. For very, you know, very personal reasons. To me that title is akin to being a priest. In 1967, I wasn’t, I’m not sure if I still am in 1992. So that was the reason I decided I wasn’t the person for it. See the Grand Captain, and the Captain, and the Grand Chiefs titles, they’re selected because of their strong spiritual leadership in the Native community. As such they’re people that are in a position to counsel you, for example, with your marriage problems, if you’re treating your children in a fashion that’s not Mi’kmaw or religious, then they’re able to go in and give you a lecture on how you should conduct yourself. And I didn’t feel that I was that person then. I guess I still don’t feel as I am of yet.

TS:        Even though others felt like you were. Did they elect you, or did…

ND:      Not really. They observe you over the years here, and several people get to know you and realize you go to church quite often, and you have a good family life and…

TS:        I see, okay. Now it’s making sense. But you’re also a spokesperson for…

ND:      Also, at the time, yeah. I was working for Indian affairs, and I was the political organizer for the province. I didn’t think the two fit together too well.

TS:        Well Alex certainly, you know, goes and speaks and educates.

ND:      This is one of the papers we done last year, and it’s in there. There’s a lot of Indian people that believe that the Grand Council should not be political; it should be a very spiritual thing. In fact, the way it was set up in the 1700s, it should maintain that. Some people believe well if they are the Grand Council and should be involved in all aspects.

TS:        What would the unions do?

ND:      Well this is what the unions should be doing, this is what the band councils should be doing.

TS:        So, it’s more like an internal and an external, that’s the difference. One’s dealing with all the affairs.

ND:      Most of the older people I’ve talked to, as far as my recollection goes, the Grand Council has no business in politics unless…I mean they can intercede on behalf of people, but not to go out and, uh… So, there’s that argument, not openly, but it’s been going on for the last, particularly the last few years.

TS:        Now some things are starting to make sense.

ND:      If you look at the back of one of these things, I noticed I had notes for myself. So, this is what some Mi’kmaq are talking about.

TS:        Yeah. Well Alex was saying a similar thing, about bringing up the Grand Chief, educating him. You know to train him to take that role and not just having it elected or anything. Just something that was brought up, brought up like a prince.

ND:      So, like the last Grand Chief that just died, I spent a lot of time with him, you know I’d either visit him or he’d visit me. This wasn’t just while he was sick but for years I’ve known him. In fact, I was the man that read the eulogy for him at his funeral. And he had some very deep concerns about the role of his council at the moment. But there are several key informants on Chapel Island, one of them was Sarah Denny. We have a lady up here that has done a bit of reading and knows quite a bit of the history of Chapel Island as well. (Inaudible) Marshall. Somehow been mesmerized by different people there, and I think this is what happened to our Grand Council. Now some of the member have been, you  that’s the proper word mesmerized right there. They’re greater leaders than what the title says, you know what I mean? It’s unfortunate, but… then again who am I to say that. Yeah, but I see it, eh?

TS:        Chief Johnson was talking about…I forgot her name, she’s down at the bottom of the hill. Stevens?

ND:      Oh, Mrs. Stevens. She’s another one, but she might have difficulty English, eh? But uh, she does have a lot of…she would remember a lot.

TS:        Yeah, that’s important. One thing I wanted to say was-

ND:      She’s not critical, that’s the… I guess that’s good, depending on what they believe, strong belief in that Native prayer. Don’t criticize my neighbour until… So there’s, that’s why I found a lot of the old Indian people, they didn’t feel that what this person done or is doing is right, but who are they to judge or be critical about it? That’s something that a lot of Indians wrestle with, eh? And I guess it’s a good trait. Unfortunately, I don’t follow it to a T.  I guess why it happened to me is because I managed to get beyond grade 8, it changed me a bit. I’ve had that too\over the years, and I would talk to people and they’d say oh jeez, that guy was stepping on your toes and you didn’t do nothing. I guess that’s why sometimes I’m a bit, uh, you know when you weigh things and you know like I said, if somebody’s stepping on your toe, my god you gotta either push or…But I’ve noticed a lot of old people that I’ve talked to over the years, and I asked them why they do that. It goes to that little prayer, don’t, uh…there’s a reason for that person.

TS:        Is that a Mi’kmaw prayer or a Christian prayer?

ND:      I guess it’s Christian. They’ve somehow given us the credit for coming up with it. It’s probably deserved. Maybe not now, but 10 year gone by. It’s just from either the Christian or Mi’kmaw upbringing that you’d have. (Name deleted) asked me three or four times to give him a hand with what has to happen at Chapel Island, and I do believe I have an expertise in finding money. Some people look at commercialization as making all kinds of money. My job here is I don’t care if some of the things I start make money or not. The thing is, as long as they don’t go in the hole, and they do create some jobs.

            This is my card.

TS:        Oh good. I was wondering if you spell it N O or N E.  Nice card!

ND:      Yeah, it’s a story in itself. I have a couple of kids who graduated the college of art, eh? It’s a Christmas present.

TS:        Oh I see, that’s pretty neat, eh? That’s impressive. Well, this has been very good. So you’re somebody that, let me tell you one other thing-

-Tape cuts out, resumes-

ND:      …To work with Indian groups, eh?

TS:        I think that’s changing.

ND:      I hope so, because one of my jobs now is month is to start knocking on a few doors and developing that museum.

TS:        Well I’ll tell you the person in Halifax Parks who you can talk to. His name is (name deleted). Okay? He handles that.

ND:      He’s museums, is he?

TS:        No, Parks. That’s very different. (name deleted). Now, the reason I’m, I was just up at Red Bank and he’s about to send them information on cooperative ventures too. You know, Parks is trying to get away from buying or acquiring the land, they still do that somewhat but they’re trying to go more for a cooperative thing. There’s all sorts of ways and rules and, you know, guidelines for what they give to and how it’s done. There’s another man in Ottawa, I don’t know if I have his number, his name’s (name deleted). He’s the man in Ottawa who handles all of the…they’re in the process of being changed, the guidelines. They’re doing much more, they’re opening it, expanding it more, making it more liberal, all the guidelines. And he’s involved in that, knows the most up to date things you know, educational programming and that kind of thing, research…

ND:      I’ve been, the last four years I guess, I don’t know why the last four years, but I’ve spent a lot of money working on Chapel Island. Just my own, I enjoy doing it. I’ve started doing some forestry work, clearing paths and stuff that they’re talking about and uh, I guess I’ve been doing it in a fashion that it’s not alarming people, to see gradual changes over the years and with my own personal resources, I can only do so much with like I said 11 kids.

TS:        Except recruit them. (laughs)

ND:      They help me quite a bit. I don’t know if you’ve seen Chapel Island.

TS:        No, I wish I could.

ND:      I have a nice picture at home. In fact, I can show you a picture when we go upstairs of Chapel Island. I’ve been trying to encourage development of camp sites further back, and people aren’t going to move into the woods, so I’ve done some clearing and having the forestry background, I think I can do it without upsetting the ecology or whatever. I’ve gradually improved the…for years there they had the way of the cross, cause I don’t know if they’re Catholic but on the island was old wooden crosses they had. They set them up during the mission and I used to see the kids carrying them all over the place. It struck a chord, so a couple years ago I had some roman crosses made and I had them embedded in cement so that they’re not moveable, and they won’t rot for, you wouldn’t have to replace them every other year. See there’s fourteen stations in the way of the cross, but sometimes we end up with eleven because they were wood and they were broken, or someone stole one.

TS:        Oh I see.

ND:      So for the last three years, they haven’t had to replace any. And see the other thing about Chapel Island is that it used to be the burial site of all the Mi’kmaw Indians in eastern North America.

TS:        Before the mission and everything.

ND:      Even after the mission started, they would bring their brothers or… you hear these jokes about an Indian carrying a body from New Brunswick, eh? I mean they joked about it but in fact it was true. If your brother died somewhere and they were bringing him down to bury him at the holy site. So I don’t know if any of these are (inaudible), you know, this (?) become jokes in a fashion, but that’s what they’re talking about.

            Has, just out of curiosity, anybody ever done any archeology, archeological work on Chapel Island?

ND:      Unfortunately not. In fact, there for a while we had some of our Indian treasure hunters, and they were going over with those machines and digging holes different places and they were finding old coins there and it got to the point where they had to be stopped. There’s a pit over there at Chapel Island similar to what they found at Oak Island, with the [crib? crypt?] work and that.  Nobody’s really explored that. They did one dig on the Island, I think they got down to fourteen feet or so, they kept finding this [crib? crypt?] work.

TS:        What was it they found?

ND:      (inaudible) work, similar to the Oak Island pit.

TS:        I don’t… what do you mean?

ND:      You know they’re looking for treasure at Oak Island, eh? Supposed to be Captain Kidd or somebody. Buried treasure.

TS:        Oh, I see, okay. This isn’t to look for artifacts, it’s to look for money.

ND:      Yeah, and uh, I don’t know what happened anyway. They got scared away by superstition or something, then they covered it up and there’s been no other real digging done there.

TS:        Not professionally done by archaeologists.

ND:      Like when I was putting up these crosses, I had to dig holes for the cement. Found some interesting bits and pieces but wasn’t out looking for them.

TS:        Like what did you find?

ND:      I found old bricks for an example, or metal spears and stuff like that. It all dealt with the fortress, you know? We found cannons, balls…

TS:        On the island? [ND: From the Island.]  That came from Louisburg?

ND:      Probably.

TS:        Or St Peter’s.

ND:      Or St. Peter’s. Port Toulouse there. There was a strong connection between Port Toulouse and Louisburg, eh?  The old French road.

-Tape cuts out, comes back-

ND:      …They’re bulletproof, I don’t know why I need bulletproof boots other than the fact that one of my young fellas shot a hole through his foot here a couple of years ago. He was lucy

TS:        So what were you saying? Oh, you were finding artifacts, and Port Toulouse and Louisburg. Can you say more about that, that whole connection?

ND:      Well, they had a road, the old French road, I think, I don’t know if you’ve picked it up anywhere. It led from Port Toulouse to Louisburg. And it’s still, that would be a nice project in fact, to revive that, eh?

TS:        Where is that?

ND:     It runs from St. Peter’s, down along the shores and it runs off Chapel Island here then it cuts off…

TS:        Is it still used?

ND:      No, no. If you’re a woodsman you can still follow it, and you’ll find places where they had to build temporary wooden bridges, crib work and stuff like that. So they used to haul their supplies back and forth, rather than go by boat they used horses to go up to Louisburg.

TS:        That was shorter than by boat?

ND:      No no, but for obvious reasons probably during the wars they couldn’t go by boat, and road was more feasible.

TS:        That’s really interesting.

ND:     Yeah. I think the historical society…

TS:       So I’ll ask them about the old French road, is that what you’re saying?

ND:     Yup. They would have something. In fact, there’s a centennial project we thought of doing back here, on the road, but it would’ve been a massive project. You’re talking what, forty miles for…

TS:       From here to Louisburg?

ND:      Yeah. Cause you can’t go in a straight line, eh?

TS:        You know why I’m confused? Because to drive from Louisburg to here you have to drive to Sydney and on the map, it looks quite close, and I didn’t notice there was no road, that I’d have to go back…

ND:      The old French road.

TS:        So, it’s about 40 miles from here to Louisburg.

ND:      So as a centennial project, what we done, we took two canoes from Chapel Island to Montreal.

TS:        Yeah, I heard about that.

ND:      Cause we have a treaty with the Mohawks, the Mi’kmaq have a treaty with the Mohawks as a result of Chapel Island. So, in ’67, we took that canoe trip to reaffirm that treaty.

TS:        With the Mohawks. Where was that signed?

ND:      That was signed on Chapel Island. That was one of the reasons why some of our people went to Oka because we have a treaty to help one another out in times of hostilities.

TS:        I see, I didn’t know that. When was that signed, do you know?

ND:      It was signed in the late 1700s.

TS:        Uh-huh. I didn’t realize that. Can you, I just wanted to ask you about treaties, do you know much about treaty signing?

ND:      At one time.

TS:        You did or you don’t?

ND:      I did, and I have a lot of information. See I started the Union Nova Scotia Indians.

TS:        You did?

ND:      I’m the founder of the National Indian Brotherhood.

TS:        You did a lot for a man with a lot of children. You know, I’m curious about something that’s been troubling me. Let me switch tapes if you don’t mind. Tell me if I’m taking too much of your time.

                        [switch tape]

TS:       The reason I’m asking about treaties is because at Fort Anne, and Fort Louisburg, all these places had treaty signing between the English, French, and Mi’kmaq and Maliseet in some cases. And I heard at one point that the way the Mi’kmaq did treaties was it was a yearly, each year they would read-

ND:      Reaffirm it

TS:       Reaffirm them with the wampum belt and decide whether or not the conditions of the treaty had been upheld.

ND:      That’s right. That’s the purpose of Chapel Island before Christianity and lord knows how long before the 1400’s they used to meet there to sign treaties, to exchange prisoners, to assign hunting territories, to settle family disputes.

TS:       Well what fascinated me was…see I see, when you go to people like yourself and other members of the tribe, you see there are two perspectives on one thing. And, you know, what fascinates me, say if you had a reenactment of a treaty day like who was I talking to that wanted to do it? And I have thought about it too…have an actual reenactment of Treaty Day with the governments and Mi’kmaq as a nation and the government of Nova Scotia, but that the English tended to see one treaty as permanent, forever, and the Mi’kmaq saw them as something to be renewed yearly. Is that true? I’m just trying to find out if I’m on the right track with that or not.

ND:      Yeah like that’s the problem they had with the 1752 treaty, we fought a moose hunting case there, and we knew that the law or the court was going specifically on the 1752 treaty and the historians that studied that, they were too narrow in terms of, they were just devoting their thing to 1752 not realizing that the research we have done. You know the 1752 treaty was actually signed in 1725, it was reaffirmed in 1731, again in 1743, 49. After 1752 other tribes came into it, 1760 and so on, and each time there was a variation in how they entered into the terms of that treaty.

TS:       And who entered into it too? Would it change? Would different tribes maybe enter?

ND:      Yeah, it would change. They would have a better uh, you know, it’s like your welfare program. You had a lousy welfare program in ‘49 but they revised it to the point where you’re now talking about guaranteed annual income. And I’m coming from a position of, okay guaranteed annual income is great eh but how do you guarantee adequate income? Guaranteed annual income leaves you in poverty, but guaranteed adequate income would…

TS:       Allows you to live.

ND:      Yeah

TS:       So, is that still a view of treaties today, by the Mi’kmaq?

ND:      It will always be, I guess.

TS:       That it’s not, but what would happen if say the English, you know in a case where…

ND:      I doubt very much if the government would sit down now and sign a treaty because they wouldn’t be dealing with people through interpreters anymore, they wouldn’t be talking to Indians with no education, they would need lawyers and on and on and on. And I think that’s the thing that remains for Nova Scotia, there’s no land treaties signed for this whole province of Nova Scotia and you know from the point of law, the point of law tells me that I still own this whole province.

TS:       Right, well see when I’m in this position as a researcher and I’m talking about bounded land, it starts to look a little ludicrous after a while to me. I mean, I see there is two ways of reading history, one is from the books and one is to get out and hear what people actually did on the land and what they perceived the land to be. And it’s a much different view. Like Louisburg for instance…I mean this is not going to change over- night and something might not change period but-

ND:      Louisburg tends to downplay the Indian involvement in Louisburg for obvious reasons, I guess.

TS:       I’ll tell you what they say and, you know, from one point of view, from the Parks point of view, it’s legitimate, not necessarily from a Mi’kmaw point of view, which is they interpret one year, 1944, and they’re not doing sort of, they’re not there to represent the whole show, the whole story. They’re there to represent one year, and in that particular year this was particularly what Mi’kmaq might have done so that the present, at the actual fort, if you’re just taking that site, the fort itself in that year, you might not have tons of Mi’kmaw presence because it was one year. Whereas, maybe the year before there might have been…

ND:      See the thing is, when the established the fortress, who did they displace?

TS:       Did they though? That’s what I’m curious about

ND:      That’s an old Indian fishing camp eh?

TS:       Was it, now see that I don’t know.

ND:      Same as the port of Halifax. Why did the settlers fall in love with that nice harbour and that nice port eh? Simply because of several reasons. It was protected and you know, and the Indians were living there for basically the same reason.

TS:       Well what about, tell me about Louisburg. Do you know much about the land that is there?

ND:      Well it’s stated that, most history books will tell you that we were nomadic eh, that we moved from winter sites to summer camps and obviously Louisburg and that area was a great place for fishing. The Indians subsisted on fish and naturally in the summer they would move there. It was also cooler and then come winter they’d get their winter supply of fish and then they would move into the inland to Chapel Island or some other places. And you can’t convince me otherwise because Louisburg is in fact, even today it is a major fishing port. And, I mean if you’re going to establish a fishery you’re not going to go somewhere where there’s no fish, and the Indians were doing the same thing. Any archeological sites that are found that Indian’s gathered there was a reason for it, there was a lot of a certain type of game or a certain type of shell-fish or what-not. In fact, your anthropologist and archeologists they look for shell-fish to find, but the fact is that the Indians didn’t live there permanently. That’s not to say that they won’t be going back there again next year or two years after. Also, Indians had a tendency to move, not to the same site over and over and over and over again you know, they would let the stock replenish and find another spot, several spots. The reason for St. Peter’s, you know the reason that the reserve is at St. Peter’s is basically the same reason. The fish were coming into that stream that was there, or portage, easy access to mostly the fish and sea birds or animals or what have you.

TS:       So how do you see Louisburg yourself? I mean a lot of the Parks say we just don’t have the money, which is true, I know that’s true, and I have mentioned that-

ND:      It was established really as a job creation thing anyways, and let’s face it eh, and this is basically they have to employ the people of Louisburg and some [French]. But what bothers me is that the Maritime provinces don’t have a site to say that that site in near Bathurst there they have that site they have that Acadian village… somewhere, the Scott’s have uh, over in Iona there, they have quite a thing they’re developing. Parks Canada is playing a part in that.

TS:       What’s that mean?

ND:      Iona Village, it’s a Gaelic, Scotch and the hotel is there and all the trappings of a tourist trap or a tourist attraction. And then you have your Louisburg but they never, they are very reluctant to develop a Native type of…but of course, it’s probably the Native’s fault to some extent that we can’t get together and say this is the place where it is going to be located.

TS:       Well that was a question that I came back from Red Bank with and that’s the obvious you know, all of the archaeological evidence from 3,000 years ago, that’s an obvious site. One thing my Director asked me was, he said well is that something all the Mi’kmaq, say Parks goes in there…

ND:      Debert goes back over 10,000 years.

TS:       Right, if you were going to just develop a Mi’kmaw cultural center or site would Red Bank or the Mi’kmaw tribe…

ND:      In 1970, I did a plan for a Mi’kmaw village with what I know of Chapel Island and ran with it to the Chiefs eh, and none of them could.. you know obviously from a vested interest point of view I felt Chapel Island was the area and I knew what a historic village would do, and the study is still doing(inaudible) there. In the meantime, I have since acted as a consultant to the one they done in the Iroquois there, the…

TS:       Is that Ontario?

ND:      Yeah

TS:       The London one?

ND:      No, the one that the Pope appeared in. Hold on let’s see if I have that here

TS:       I would like to see that

ND:      I have so much, I’m disorganized. I have (Inaudible) and (Inaudible) [papers rustling] and I talked to Ward there and uh-

TS:       Excuse me you talked to what?

ND:      I talked to Ward in Red Bank.

TS:      Oh, Chief Ward?

ND:     Yeah, they approached me.

TS:      What did you talk to him about?

ND:     They talked about their mound, and stuff like that, and thought that it would be an ideal place for an Indian village. This is something that I  done…I was chief here for a number of years, and these are some of the things we talked about back then. It was very deep(?) in the seventies, each time we were told that it wouldn’t be feasible here and we find(?)it being located elsewhere.

TS:      You decided what wasn’t feasible?

ND:      No, we didn’t decide that; it was the funding agencies deciding that.

TS:       The who?

ND:      The funding agencies, for example Parks Canada decided that the best place for a park was St. Peter’s not at Chapel Island even though Chapel Island had more historical significance than… this was suggested and a couple of years later they established the park at St. Peter’s. I actually have somewhere in my office here, the actual working drawings are at home, of what a village would look like and what it would cost to put up and maintain.

TS:       That would be interesting, I’m sure it’s shifted a bit from then.

ND:      Oh yeah, but uh…Oh, you can have that, I got an extra copy. See this is a… most, a lot of it actually has to do with [inaudible: “not to make money”?] A lot of it also has to do with, unfortunately, with the stereotype view that some people have of Indians is that we wouldn’t be capable of doing these things in spite of the fact that, anyway I told you I had twelve kids actually; I lost a young fella a couple of years ago, but uh, some  of them have college degrees. So, when we get together at home were not necessarily talking about… (TS says “Cooking”) Actually, I do because I have a daughter that’s in her 3 or 4^th year of hotel hospitality. So, we get into that, but we talk about zero-based budget, and about current events, not on the reserves so much but what’s happening in Yugoslavia we’re concerned about…we talk about what’s happening. But this is the person’s perception of Indians is that they… you know there is something wrong here. It’s unfortunate, you know?  I spent twenty years in the Human Rights Commission, as well as part of my (inaudible)

[ND gets phone call. Break in tape]

ND:      Yeah, it’s really sad sometimes. Like when I was Chief here for years and I would have people come in wanting to meet the Chief, and I would be talking to them for two hours. And, one case in particular I had to ask the guy, after talking to him, and I didn’t tell him who I was, I just invited him into the house and had a cup of tea and we talked, and he said, “Well when is the Chief going to be here?” And I said, “Well I’ve been talking to you for two hours now.”  And so I asked him, “Who did you…” and I just sort of laughed. “I said, did you expect to meet a Dan George type of person?”  And he sort of laughed, “Yeah,” he said, “I expected a much older man to be the Chief of a reserve rather than…” This was almost twenty years ago now; I was just a little over thirty but… So that perception that happens quite often.

TS:       Yeah, I’m aware of it; I hear it a lot.

ND:      But it’s well-intentioned but even now I have difficulty presenting something to government and I usually take a white person along with me and they listen to me while I feed them the information.

TS:       No, I understand completely.  But what’s happening what’s good, it’s sort of sad from the one point of view but it’s good from another point of view, is more and more Mi’kmaq are getting educated.

ND:      Oh yeah. So many.

TS:       And something that almost made me cry, that was very touching. Alex… I was staying with Rita Joe in Eskasoni because we were thinking of doing a film with her [ed. This is in reference to the film, “The Song of Eskasoni” TS initiated.] and he looked out the window up the mountain and he said, “Right up there, that is where I want to see a university.” You know, a Mi’kmaw university. I was just so, I was almost in tears you know. It is just so much is needed to have that cycle completed.

ND:      The reality though is that I developed a concept of a Mi’kmaw university several years ago and now it is looking in line more of a university without walls, and the reason being that we are so scattered in the Maritimes here, but you should be able to take the  university to wherever the need is [they need it?]. For example, we trained a bunch of social workers back… you’ll find it in that resume. I know I start a lot of things, but I never finish anything but I guess that’s what an organizer is all about, finding people that can do it and follow the concept through. Yeah, that’s basically how I started developing [development] and unfortunately this is why the Indian community is not developing, they expect other people to, you know, like (inaudible).

[ND and TS side discussion about when to come back and getting copies of material]

ND:      But there definitely is a lot more history here than, you know, a couple of hours and like I said there is a lot of stuff written. It’s just that my filing system, you know it’s nothing that I can brag about. I do know personally I  have a lot of stuff, but I know others like this Lillian Marshall, she would know a lot of it.

TS:       Well that’s really what I need to know, in terms of who Parks can contact if they decide to go and do something with Chapel Island and, you know, who will go into cooperation with them.

ND:      I remember when Rita was starting out-

TS:       Rita Joe?

ND:      Rita has a lot of my…Rita Joe. She has a lot of my information-

TS:       Oh, really?

ND:      …that I have yet to pick up in my collection.

TS:       For her poetry you mean? Things she is studying.

ND:      I’ve given her ideas and I paid for her first book. Well not me personally, I was head of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians and encouraged her through that. She was quite a contributor to the MicMac News, which I started back in ’65 or there about. I started it off as a newsletter and it grew and grew. I used to do the (inaudible) in the Air Force, the Air Force magazine then and when I got here, I eventually had a lot of fun with it.

TS:       It’s still going, who funds it now? When you lost your funding?

ND:      Secretary of State partially, partially by advertising.

TS:       Is that what kept it alive. Was it last year or the year before when the funding got cut?

ND:      Last year. They shouldn’t have quit just like that, eh?

TS:       Yeah

ND:      I was one of the critics of them trying to drop out (inaudible)

TS:       Who was they, the government?

ND:      The people who were running it. They were too reliant of government funding.

TS:       Oh, I see.

ND:      They could have made enough by selling their papers own advertisement. They raised quite a bit of money.

TS:       So, do they do that now? Is that how they support it?

ND:      Well, they have a small grant now from government, but they also have a major fundraiser which is bingo games in Sydney.

TS       Good ol’ bingo.

ND:      Thank God for bingo.  [TS mentions Waltes] Waltes is another interesting game. It’s unfortunate all these things that happened with the Indians had to go underground with a lot of the old English laws they brought in. You know people were arrested here for playing waltes, eh? I had cancer in ’73 and I was treated by Indian medicine and people are reluctant to talk about that medicine because someone twelve years ago, they could get put in jail for practicing medicine without a license. 

TS:       Did it work?

ND:      It’s twenty years

TS:       What kind of cancer was it?

ND:      I was given six months to live.

TS:       For what kind of cancer?

ND:      Stomach cancer, and I see all kinds of little miracles like that happen but (inaudible). We fought for hunting and fishing here for a long time, in fact I was on one of those arrested a couple of years ago. And the main reason behind it that people don’t want to accept is that there are certain types of Indian medicines you can collect off animals and it’s not necessarily during hunting season. You know if you collected things normal it didn’t have to be in January, or July (inaudible)

TS       That’s interesting, and you are the first that has mentioned that medicinal side of it, not just the food and…

ND:      You know you can argue that we don’t need it anymore, you know you can go to the drug store and pick it up. But what if the drug store stuff doesn’t work? Then you resort to that eh? But then why should you have to get all kinds of permission to gather. I mean we gather sweet grass from the park in St. Peter’s there, happens to be a lot of it, and I know that they are concerned that we are going in there and pulling up grass and stuff like that and [unclear: “I’m hoping they say it out loud you know?] They haven’t to me, but they have to other Indians. Some of them were told the polite English word to ‘fuck park around it doesn’t matter with me. These things, like the old portage I mentioned or the fact that somebody put his house there, to me the portage is still there. There was a reason for it being there and it was kind of sad. It was a couple of years ago we reenacted a ceremony where we took a canoe from here and took it to We’koqma’q, and they wouldn’t let us through their property. They had a steel gate and I invited them to go by canoe and they went by car. (inaudible) And, I told them go right through it and it was no issue with me (inaudible) I guess it’s partly, too, the people who lived there didn’t understand the significance of it. The same as Kelly’s Mountain. There’s been no big public outcry before but there was no reason for a public outcry because it was there, it was, you know, nobody was bothering it until now.

TS:       What do you think about Kelly’s Mountain?

ND:      I think that there are sacred caves there. I mean we don’t flock in numbers to go there but the occasion arises every few years (inaudible) go and have a look and see if, in fact, this is true, the same as Oka. Everyone is overlooking the fact that we don’t dance on my grandfather’s grave and I don’t dance on your grandfather’s grave. That’s the whole issue. They say that a grave can be moved. No, no, that’s the grave there; (inaudible) not want to move it; why disturb the spirits? You know that was the very obvious reasons for Oka, not policemen being killed, or you know? God rest his soul but he wouldn’t have been killed if they didn’t decide to put the graveyard there.

TS:       So, the basic thing with graves—I also consider them sacred—but is that the spirits remain in the area. Is that it?

ND:      That’s the funny thing about it…I’m not a spiritual man and I will be the first one to admit it. I could wear the tee-shirt, “even though I walk through the most visible (inaudible).” It’s how I think of myself. I understand the spiritualism and, you know, Chapel Island to me is a place you don’t go with a whole bunch of people. But the church talks about this thing called presence, you know, and I never knew what presence was, I used to laugh at it, eh? Until living here too, I get to the Island more often than say the average person. I go over there to get away from this, well from this, and I spend a lot of time there alone just doing something or walking around. And, quite often I’m there and my hair stands on end eh, and this is not supposed to be true but…I’m one of those people that when I hear a noise there is a reason for it and I would go to great lengths to find out. But when you get to the point where you know you’re alone, yet you’re communicating with someone, and I felt that often on Chapel Island.

So, I have talked to other Indians and, you know, “Have you ever been to Chapel Island alone? Oh yeah what did you find out or did you get any (inaudible)?” And a lot of people say, “Yeah I did.” And this doesn’t happen to everybody eh, but I noticed people here…like I have a boat and some people would come year-round actually and say, “How about lending me your boat; I want to go to the Island.” And I would lend them the boat and they would climb in it and they would stay there for a few hours, a few days, and some for three or four months because they had a problem they wanted to work out or something.  And I talked to them. “Why?” “They say there’s something there.” And sure, there’s a church there there’s a graveyard type of thing. You know, (inaudible) And I think that’s why the Bishop… you know there haven’t been too many Bishops to come to Chapel Island but his guy here, he’s been here often. In fact, he wants to build a retreat over there for himself and I have yet to ask him why. Did he feel that…Did he get that feeling? It’s quite a few Indians that have, you know…others go over there with their beer and stuff and obviously they didn’t get any warning. And, I found that. We have an old lady from this reserve who used to practically live over there and she still haunts the place (chuckles).

TS:       She still haunts the place? (inaudible)

ND:      Yeah. See the thing we were told about Chapel Island at one time is that the missionaries owned these Indians and they didn’t want anyone intruding on their hold over them eh. You know for a long-time white people weren’t allowed on Chapel Island and I don’t think it was so much the Indians; it was the missionaries who didn’t want the influence of alcohol and…

TS:       Yes, and that’s in one of the accounts of 1962, it was the priest who was chasing this young anthropologist off and he was the one that was upset that he…

ND:      Well, they put the wrong ideas in these Indians heads.

TS:       Well, in Eskasoni I wanted to film—I can’t say it properly— Pestie’wa’taqatimk. It’s the honouring, the naming ceremonies over the twelve Christmas, there’s twelve days where they honour the different saints names.

ND:      Oh yeah, Pestie’wa’taqatimk

TS:       Yeah, and Rita (Joe) was really sweet and called up a number of the parish council members to say is it alright if she goes in there.

ND:      I’ve been in there. My name is Noel, eh? And there is Steven and uh-

TS:       Well they have opened it up to other names and uh, but it was the priest who was the most protective. You know, apparently, he didn’t let a wedding be video-taped recently and he was the one who…

ND:      See until about 1949 or ’51, if you were a Mi’kmaw the only place you really could get married was in Chapel Island, and the only place you could get baptized was on Chapel Island, and all these things involved the church. The reason being that we used to have a missionary that spoke the language.

TS:       Which one was that?

ND:      His name was Father (inaudible) Clasetta?

TS:       (Inaudible)

ND:      Yeah, and he used to speak the language so people… in the forties and fifties English wasn’t really spoken all that well and they felt more comfortable conducting the ceremonies in Mi’kmaw and their own people around. So that’s the reason, the real reason that Chapel Island is important is that there is very few Indians now that didn’t have their parents marry over there.

TS:       Oh, I see.

ND:      …baptized over there their great grandparents or grandparents are buried over there. So for there ares reason for…but our parish priest here dropped a lot of those because it was inconvenient to him to go to the Island to have funerals there and so on down the line.

TS:       Is there a cemetery, like a Catholic cemetery there?

ND:      Yeah, the whole island is a graveyard, eh? But for obvious reasons we have a little squared off plot that’s recognized as the cemetery.  I mean, let’s face it. The Indians have been buried there for years and years and years. In fact, I was one of those bad guys who sent the bulldozer over there in ’67 to clear off some land. It was after the dozer had been working back and forth that I noticed, Oh my God, there’s little black marks.

TS:       I don’t get it.

ND:      That were dust and that where old graves were, and we just bulldozed them over.

TS:       Why?

ND:      Well we weren’t aware then that the swamp was at one time a graveyard.

TS:       Oh, I see.

ND:      We found little artifacts, stuff that was buried with them, but the damage had been done and we asked (unclear) the priests (unclear) people bury people on top of people on top of people with limited space. But if you’re as curious as I have been, you found round mounds…

TS       Oh really? Are they still there?

ND:      …on the Island. Yeah, they still exist, we’ve dug some of them out. You know at one time we used to bury this way, facing east. That’s what anthropologists would find, archaeologist or what have you –

TS:       There are still mounds there; is that what you’re saying?

ND:      Yeah, they’re obvious all over the island. So, there is a lot of interesting stuff that takes place or took place there.

TS:       Yeah but would the Mi’kmaq want archaeologist to find that?

ND:      I don’t think so. People like Alec would be in a position to say ‘no and obviously have two different feelings with the Island.

TS:       On just leave it where it is it is

ND:      I’m coming from a different direction.I’m probably yes more spiritual than most of them now and you know the last few years; But I also accept the reality of uh. For example, I saw little boats going over there and a few years ago I had one made that makes it possible for wheelchairs to have easy access to (coughing). You can wheel the wheelchair on the boat and it’s no problem for old people eh because some of the old people were reluctant to come if they had to step into this boat. These types of comforts you have to start and I think families over there weak, you can’t have them running to the store every ten minutes, and you should have some kind of power to service their fridges and stuff. And like I said this stuff here, souvenirs and stuff, you know people want to take back a memento from the Island. That’s not commercialization, if I pay 100 bucks for those I want to get something back so that I can buy a 100 bucks more of those. Kids now, you know they come over here for a good time and when they do and you have to organize them somewhat.