The following interview is with Mi’kmaw Heriditary Chief, Stephen Augustine, of the Elsipogtog, or Big Cove, First Nation in New Brunswick. It was conducted on August 17. 1991by Trudy Sable as part of a project for the Canadian Park Services Atlantic Region, Traditional Sources Study to look at ways parks could increase their interpretation of Mi’kmaw history and culture throughout Atlantic Canada. The Traditional Sources Study was released in February 1992.

The archiving of this interview was sponsored by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre, in Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding through  the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Initiatives Program (2018-2021).

Note: TS is driving Stephen Augustine to the airport during this interview.

SA:       So, you wanted to know more information or relative information, or relevant cultural information for the Parks Interpretation Programs?

TS:        Yeah, I’m wondering what you think is realistic, and what you’d like to see of parks in general and Kouchibouguac obviously is so close to your  and you’ve worked there. (Name deleted) was telling me about the work you had done there before and what programs you think could really work there.

SA:       Well, judging from the reaction we had from the Park services the chief interpreter there, as well as the reaction of the public that was there who came afterwards and asked a lot of questions about our culture. There seems to be a lot of interest in the Aboriginal cultures that are within the vicinity of the Park areas and people are very, very curious as how Aboriginal people had used the park area previous to the arrival of Europeans. And part of our presentations at the national Park was explaining through traditional folklore because we have no written material, and this is one of the areas which needs to be addressed seriously by the federal government of Canada is to recognize the relevance of folklore as really valid, traditional information. Because for thousands and thousands of years Mi’kmaw society has passed this information down from generation to generation about the Creation, how the Creation affected the subsistence of, or the survival of its peoples. And the Creation involved a recognition a spiritual connection between the environment around us, like  he birds, the fish, and the animals, and the plants, and the grasses; they are equal to the human who shares the surface with those elements of the environment, and uh this is what the Native, the Mi’kmaq recognize as a really sacred relationship that we have with our world around us. And so, it is through the passing down of traditional knowledge that we gain or respect the traditional relationships that were there because it ensured the survival in of our peoples. And–

TS:        And you feel like that’s still true today? That whole sense of nature are–

SA:       Well, this worldview has demonstrated that we had to have a respect for our Elders because of their wisdom because through their ages they’d experienced life in such a way that a forty-year-old person would not have gone through. So, they also respected the strength of the youth, the hope, the inspiration for a future. And they also relied on the love, and understanding nature of the mother, the role of the mother in Indigenous societies. And, so the grandmother, the mother, the youths, and as well as the spiritual leader in combination of all that, having respect for all of that, as well as having the respect for the environment around them. Like, not having to cut trees down for the sake of just cutting them, and not having to kill animals just for the sake of killing them. Now, our Elders are telling us all across Canada that it is this simplistic worldview that has sustained the environment. It hasn’t… for thousands of years it didn’t deplete the animals, it didn’t deface the earth of all its trees, and it didn’t change the  the lakes and river systems. So, it maintained a really ideal balance and it is this that the Aboriginal people want to convey to mainstream society through education and through public forums like the Parks, the Parks Canada Interpretation Program. And it is through this kind of positive learning or teaching that we can gain a better understanding of each other’s cultures and that we could coexist. 

Aboriginal people just want to usually understand, or get, receive understanding for the way they live. If an aboriginal person or a Mi’kmaw person wants to go and cut a tree, and he needs that tree to make a basket, or needs it to be for a handle for a tool or an implement, then he feels he should not be governed by laws to restrict him from that because that is something that is part of his spiritualism, it’s part of his survival, part of his environment. So, there is this sacred close connection between the environment and the Aboriginal people, and this connection; they always refer to to as their inherent right to govern themselves. And to change their environment, to change the direction of rivers, the flow of the direction of the rivers, like to dam up the rivers, it changes the flow of environment.

Like for example, the salmon cannot go up the river the same way it would– they’re being transported up and… which produces a weaker species of salmon. And also these dams las year, or not last year but, I think maybe five years ago in northern Quebec, 70,000 caribou drowned because of the river system was dammed up and they couldn’t go across the rivers as they normally did in their migration patterns, so when 70,000 caribou did not survive, or they perished, it affected the way they, the Innu, or the Indigenous people in that area, how they relied on the caribou for their uh clothing, for their food … they’re getting subsistence from the federal government, but it’s not at the level that they’re living comfortable. So, they have to supplement their, this assistance through the acquisition of uh wild meat, hides for their clothing, and hides to me uh handcrafts so that the can sell and uh and uh express themselves in their traditional ways.

So, this is the way the Aboriginal people would like to  be seen by the mainstream society, and the Park Interpretations Program is one of the ways where they can express this, and the way to accommodate them would be…one of the ways would be possibly to set up an interpretation program run and controlled and put together by Aboriginal people because this is the way they see themselves that they would like to express themselves. And, model Indian villages and an opportunity to sell some of their crafts at Parks Canada would be one of the more better ways of giving the opportunity, and giving some economic opportunity for Aboriginal peoples, because they’re living in communities where they have no means of bringing in any type of economy. So, to offer them an outlet, let’s say for handcrafts, within the Parks system would provide an opportunity for them, and in return, you know, they would provide a service to the park and in return the park would provide them with some kind of service.

So there is a lot of ways that the Parks Canada can incorporate and uh I’m just only mentioning a few that come to mind right away, but setting up a model Mi’kmaw village, or a model Indian village in any Park’s program would enhance the cultural expression that has been, sort of like, denied of the Aboriginal people, and in this way would help to build better self-esteem for them, you know, their culture and their language, and so on, so…

TS:        What about hunting and fishing rights?

SA:       Well, hunting and fishing rights still relate back to that inherent right to govern ourselves because the relationship that the Mi’kmaw people had with the environment is because, like, the animals were there, a Mi’kmaw person would ask forgiveness from the Great Spirit Creator that they could take the lives of one of their brothers because they referred to the animals as their brothers, and that they would not waste any of this precious resource. You know, they would make their clothing, they’d get their food from there. But more important, if a park was to be used as a refuge for animals, well that’s fine because Aboriginal people are not there to diminish all the animal resources that are there, out there. I mean, I think they would they welcome the Parks Canada. But some of the things that… an example that I might give you that Aboriginal people do is that they would go into a certain area of a park to maybe spear eel in the evening, and not disturb anybody else, not even bother going to the shores, or they might just to warm up in the early in the morning, but they spear eel, and this is a traditional pursuit that’s been there for thousands and thousands of years, so something like that. And, my personal view is that I don’t think they should be able to go in there and slaughter every moose that’s there just for their Aboriginal right, because part of Aboriginal rights involves upholding those conservational measure that are there to ensure that the species survives for future use.

TS:        Well, I know [name deleted] also felt the government undermined, or underestimated the Indian self or Native self-governing, you know, just the ability to have their own rules governing hunting, regulating their own people, you know? There was that lack of trust that the Mi’kmaq or Maliseet do that…their own regulation of their own people (inaudible) moose wouldn’t be over-hunted.

SA:       Yeah, it is a very bone of contention among aboriginal people when you introduce regulations, when they’d seen themselves how a lot of these regulations were meant for non-European,  non-Native people initially so that they wouldn’t be an animal resource out there for Native people to survive, because a lot of the treaties guaranteed that the Aboriginal people would continue as they would hunt and fish in their territories. So, it was a means of protecting a way of life, a culture at first.

TS:        Well, the other issue that came up was the use of what type of weapons would be used.

SA:       Well, obviously, the use of firearms in a dangerous manner to the public is of the utmost importance to aboriginal people. I mean uh, they have so much respect for life, you know, their own, and some of the misconceptions that Europeans, I say, or non-Native people have about warrior societies among indigenous groups is that they are there to protect, they’re not there to go and challenge, or to go and, for the sake of fighting somebody until death. They’re mostly there…usually they, or they’re already formed, and they’re meant to protect their women, their Elders, and their children, plus their territories from encroachment, and so on. And so, that’s why those kind of issues arose. And the use of arms, sure, it’ll change, I mean, in some parts there are some designated areas nobody else is allowed to go in there. I think the use of eel spears is not dangerous, or injurious to anybody else except for the eels. (laughs) And, the use of firearms…maybe shooting ducks, or geese in a restricted area, sure, but in some instances, like in– among, the Innu or the Montagnais up in Labrador, or Goose Bay area, a traditional caribou hunt was disrupted by the introduction of a Park, and the Park protected the caribou from being hunted by the Innu, and this was a total disruption of a way of life of a peoples whose dependence on the caribou was vital to their existence and to continuance of their culture and their language. 

TS:        One thing Parks was interested in was traditional land-use methods in terms of Park management.

SA:       Well, and I know that that in Kouchibouguac Park area alone, there are very numerous sacred burial grounds there that belong to the Mi’kmaw people, and uh–

TS:        Are these ones that you know about, say, archeologists, (inaudible), and Parks people don’t know about?

SA:       There are many that I know about that I haven’t told archeologists or anthropologists that have come and asked, because I’ve been told by my Elders not to disclose some of those localities. But, we are concerned that– that there was a lot of grave robbing that was taking place, skulls that were being taken out, and there were skulls that were being found in downtown Richibucto, and we were concerned. And we’ve seen ashtrays that were, uh, uh on sale at yard sales, and there was the top for cut off from a skull, a human skull, and we were, uh, informally notified that these were part of the skulls that were found at the Kouchibouguac burial ground.

TS:        Oh god, that’s painful.

SA:       It’s a very, uh, big insult to us. I mean, I know they hired Native people to re-bury some of the sites, but I know still there is still some digging done, and these must be protected somehow. That’s why some of our Elders are concerned that if we disclose where the other ones are because they’re unmarked and they’re only known by where the location are by certain markings on rocks, or the environment, or the surface, like trees, or inlets, or something. But these mostly are, were burials that happened after the arrival of Europeans, because they were hasty burials, they were shallow burials, they were burials that were done quickly so that the Mi’kmaw people could move on and escape the death that was coming along through diseases, and through the French and English wars that were going on. The Mi’kmaw people were used as pawns, and several Mi’kmaq would be fighting each other.

TS:        You mean different bands, or among themselves?

SA:       Sometimes among themselves the French were involved in enticing the Mi’kmaw people to go and battle against those Mi’kmaw people who had signed allegiances and treaties with the British governments, and, uh, some of the fierce battles were done among, Mi’kmaw people after they been  inebriated with alcoholic beverages, and nobody else suffered except the Mi’kmaw people in those. And so, those… some of those burials, like in Kejimkujik, and uh, Kouchibouguac National Park were hasty burials because traditionally Indigenous burial grounds are… they go up the river and they’re usually found at the, uh, at the head of the tide. 

TS:        What about the rum distillery area there that uncovered burials, is that…was that a normal burial ground?

SA:       That was a massive burial ground that was, uh–

TS:        Was that more recent?

SA:       …that took place around, uh, 19– I mean, 1690’s when there was a massive, pestilence, or a disease that went around and killed, uh, numerous indigenous populations, uh…

TS:        So, that wasn’t so much a traditional burial ground?

SA:       No, it was a…that was a hasty burial site as well. But, uh, goods, you know like the hunting, uh, the medicine bags and everything was buried with the individual as much as possible, and their pipes, their stone pipes, their copper kettles that were trade items were buried with them, or sometimes the bones would be dried, and they would be placed inside the copper kettles along with their weapons, and tools, and their medicine bags, and their objects of… spiritual objects,  objects that they worshiped with. So, some of these burial grounds were found with these kind of remains, but some of the more traditional ones are found, uh, in higher grounds, like in Red Bank, the Augustine Mound.

TS:        Yeah, I was up there. Well, can you..Parks is really interested in land-use practices like you were talking about before. Is there at  Kouchibouquac,  is there a [Inaudible] I mean can you give me a specific example?

SA:       I mean, when I was a young person, uh, about 1955, 56, and 57, my grandfather used to go there every summer and spend the whole summer up along the dunes, the sand dunes, and he would erect a shelter made out of seaweed, and we would live there all summer. He would fish…he would fish striped bass with a net; he would fish lobster with a cage baited with meat of other fish; and he would spear eel at night, while my grandmother would bake bannock, like, out of flour–

TS:        You mean the bread? Yeah. 

SA:       The bread…out of flour, salt, and baking powder, and then either fry it, or bury it under the sand under the fire. We call it luskinikn, or [Mi’kmaw word] And, uh, we would pick blueberries, and strawberries, and she would make, you know, a blueberry bannock, she would make blueberry pie, and she would even bake a blueberry cake out there in sort of like a dutch-oven style. But, we would live there all summer, and we would eat– be eating eggs from terns, and seagulls, and we would dig clams to eat as part of our diet, we’d eat fish, smelt. So, all of these are all traditional forms of eating, and, uh, we would get it from the ocean, from the sands, and from inland, and we would do it throughout the summer, the summer months, and this included all the sandbars that go right through, uh– from, uh, Richibucto Harbour, to Saint Louis Harbour, right up onto Kouchibouguac Harbour, and up as far as Kelly’s Beach, and Calendar’s Beach; I remember camping on those areas, you know? And, uh, it was a good life, and this is our,  the way the Aboriginal People looked upon that– that area’s traditional land-use. I mean, that’s how they used it. And then they would pay their respects to the, uh, dead that were buried there; the bones of our ancestors are there. And the land-use, uh; Aboriginal People never considered the land as their own… Because of their creation story, or the relationship that they hold, the spiritual relationship with the land, because they see their grandmother, their mother, their nephew as being coming from the land, And at the time of creation, or conception, it is the work of a man or a woman, and when creation comes it’s a work of a spirit creator. When the child is given life, that is the work of the spirit creator, then the child comes in to life as a representative of that miraculous creation or that miracle. And so, it is this kind of a relationship that the Aboriginal have with the environment, with the land-use, with the buried people.

TS:        It sounds like the circle.

SA:       Yes! 

TS:        The whole sense of circle.

SA:       And so, Aboriginal people that…they don’t have a notion of ownership of this land. That’s why they have a problem understanding, “Why can’t I go out there and chop that tree? Why can’t I go there and kill that moose? It’s there for our survival. It is there for a purpose.” And so, this is what the inherent right,  this is the question that’s being asked by the government of Canada for Aboriginal people to define, and this definition is related to the relationship that the governments have with the Aboriginal people. 

TS:        It kind of all boils down to that, doesn’t it? 

SA:       Yes. 

TS:        How you see your world 

SA:       It’s a worldview. It’s an Indigenous worldview. And it’s an indigenous philosophy that is only prevalent in North America about the nature of existence. Some of the…some of our Elders are very, very, I don’t know, critical of the European concept of law and religion. They cannot understand why they would nail their own their own saviour to the cross. The cannot understand why they have laws embedded from that come from canon law, that come from religion, you know? “Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not take your wife, or take your neighbour’s wife” ot their goods, and so on, and yet there are prisons that are full of people who are doing this, and they cannot understand this contradiction in the non-Native society.

TS:        Yeah, they’re Catholic, so that’s interesting. Most Mi’kmaq are Catholic too, right?

SA:       Oh, yes. It’s not so much as they follow the Christian doctrine; it’s because of their indigenous understanding of creation and their devoutness to their own spiritualism that has been transported, or transferred, into the Christian doctrine, or the Roman Catholic doctrine. And, Mi’kmaw people will always be seen as a very devout, religious, spiritual person. It’s because they have a very different understanding of their own creation, and their own spiritualism, and their own culture, and it is through this relationship that they express this. And they…today they might call it religiosity, or what some…

and to us it’s just being true to yourself, and speaking from the heart, and… But some of our people  have been demoralized by the education system that doesn’t meet their specific cultural background, or their heritage, or their language, or their culture. An education system that is totally foreign to them, and is not incorporated in their language.

             So, uh, that’s the significance that Aboriginal people want to express, you know, any recognition of themselves as a peoples is done through this– through this process. We only know what we want to say. It’s hard for other people to dictate to us. When the federal government took over the responsibilities for Indigenous, or Indian People through its Indian Act in 1867, they have miserably failed the Indigenous People. And, for a once now they, Aboriginal People want to speak up and say, “Well, this is the way we recognize our rights.”   So, uh, that is the concept, and uh, if the parks can help, Aboriginal People will welcome the opportunity as long as they play a major part in formulating a program and putting together all the.. 

TS:        Are there people in Big Cove, or your community, like, I mean, like when Parks, okay I, you know, I say with Parks they’re willing, they’re ready, um, Parks will say, “well, who do we go to?” do, um, and say Big Cove community, because I think it should be the community nearest the parks that work with the park, you know? Do they go to you? Do they go…?

SA:       Well, they should come to the chiefs, they should come to the education people, people who run the education programs. 

TS:        Because, I mean, for instance I was trying to meet with Chief Ward, and I think it was a snowstorm, but you know, I wasn’t able to so I– so I tried, but it didn’t work, you know? So, I mean, I always say they should connect with chiefs, I feel like that’s always the first step to try. [Inaudible]

SA:       Uh, Sometimes the chiefs may not, you know, have the time, but if you have an opportunity to talk with, uh, usually the chief, or the band manager of  a Native community, and they will be able to lead you to the person who is responsible, or the person who can best help you out that kind of a situation.

TS:        So, do you think people on the Big Cove are ready and willing? Say Parks miraculously, and suddenly said,  “We’re going to do it.”

SA:       Oh yeah. People are ready to go. I mean, I’m getting ready, and I’m moving to go and help out–

TS:        I know, I didn’t get a chance to ask you about the program that you wanted to do– that you did do, um, up there. 

SA:       Well, I can probably give you a call, and give you a little more detail–