The following interview was conducted in Cape Breton, N.S. on October 21, 1992  by CBC radio host, Joella Foulds, with Trudy Sable, Vaughan Doucette, and Margaret Johnson discussing Mi’kmaw traditional dance.

The digitization and archiving of this interview was sponsored by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre, Halifax, Nova Scotia, with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Initiatives Program, 2018-2021.

(Vaughan Doucette sings I’ko)

J:F        Vaughan Doucette is a Mi’kmaw drummer, chanter, singer. He is carrying on a tradition of music and dancing that goes back centuries, long before the Europeans arrived in North America. Trudy Sable has been studying that tradition. She is an Anthropology and History student. She’ll be presenting her findings at a conference on the arts this weekend in Baddeck. And Margaret Johnson is a Mi’kmaw elder from Eskasoni (Eskissoqnik), and they’ve all joined us in the studio this morning. Good morning to you all!

TS, VD, MJ:     Good morning!

JF:        Thank you so much Vaughan for that wonderful music. We’ll get to talk to you about it in just a moment. I’d like to ask Trudy first of all, as the only non-Native person in the group here, why you’re the one who is interested in studying and documenting the dancing and music of the Mi’kmaw?

TS:        I’m the only one in terms of non-Native, you mean?

JF:        Um-hmm.

TS:        I don’t mean it that way, there are other people studying.…

JF:        Well, in this group.

TS:        Well, these people are carrying it on. I’m studying it. I think there’s a difference between studying and…

JF:        Why are you interested in studying it?

TS:        I’m interested because when I began studying it, I was interested in culture and dance. Those two things have always interested me. And as I looked into it, I saw that dance was such a pervasive part of the traditional Mi’kmaw culture, and so much was transmitted through dance, so much was embodied through dance, expressed through dance, in all sorts of – every situation almost, within the Mi’kmaw culture, traditional Mi’kmaw culture. So, I was curious to trace that and see how much has carried forward to the present day, and which movements have been lost throughout time, and which movements have been added or whatever, and what chants have survived and…

JF:        So this is a big job you’ve undertaken. What have you actually been doing? How have you done all that?

TS:        Well, I began studying historical texts first, missionary documents, government documents, and so forth…oral traditions as they’ve been written down, mostly by non-Native people. And then, I was sort of dissatisfied with that being mostly written by non-Natives, so I decided to sort of take the leap, and go out and begin looking and speaking to Mi’kmaw people and just entering the community, different reserves. I’ve travelled to many reserves now and been really graciously welcomed and talked to by a number of people. And, just gradually going to different cultural events and Pow-wows etc. over time and talking to a lot of people and trying to weave together the strands that have continued on until today. And it is a big job, it keeps coming, more and more keeps coming out every time I speak to someone.

JF:        And, if you could really encapsulate, what’s the most significant thing you’ve discovered or the most significant experience of it? What would that be?

TS:        There are a lot. I’d say, it’s expression that comes very much from the heart. I’d say it’s the joining together of the spiritual and the physical, you know, of not separating so much heaven and earth as we might in the Christian tradition, but very much more of an integration of the spiritual and physical through dance and chanting, I would say…

JF:        I think we got a sense of that already, because here in the studio, we…Vaughan, if you could just join us on this now, you are the one carrying on this tradition. We get a sense that it has great meaning for your life. Why do you do it?

VD:      Well, to me it’s a form of healing. Also, I’m recovering from alcohol abuse and drug abuse, and it’s a way for me to find my self-esteem and to bring my awareness up of who I am, and who I am in the world as a Mi’kmaw person, you know? There’s a lot of Mi’kmaw people out there who are still suffering and trying to deal with the world around them, and they’re trying to find their identity as Mi’kmaw people. And I think that’s, to me anyway, that’s the way I see things.

JF:        It seems like a very spiritual experience.

VD:      It is! It’s a form of prayer. It’s a form of worship, I guess. And dance and singing is a form of worship, to show the Creator how thankful we are that we are in good health and that we are able to express ourselves through dance and through singing, you know, to show how thankful we are.

JF:        Margaret Johnson, as an Elder, how do you feel when you see younger people like Vaughan carrying on this tradition?

MJ:       I feel good about it. I think it’s wonderful that they started something like this. There’s lots of young people that are joining with Vaughan today. First, every

body said they’re crazy, eh? There never was an Indian like that before (laughing). But now everybody’s joining, because when they do these Pow-wows, everybody is sober, and if you drink you are not allowed to go in that place. Now, there’s lots of people that are thankful for what they started, because they sobered up a lot of people.

JF:        Has it changed a lot over the years? I mean, was there a time when this was not carried on, and this wasn’t encouraged?

MJ:       Yeah. It’s been quite a while ‘cause we never, some people never seen it before. But way back, I remember, when I was about eight or nine, I used to be nosy and watch the older people, what they were doing, eh? There used to be, in summertime we had a Saint Anne’s day, and we’d celebrate. Some people used to celebrate two weeks, way, way back, 60 years ago, 65 years ago. And they used to have a great big wigwam (wikuom). It was about 20 feet around and they had a feast of – I don’t know what it was, but they used to come out from that big wigwam and they’d start to sing this song: I’ko, I’ko, I’ko neh.

JF:        Oh yeah, that’s the, that’s a traditional one?

MJ:       Yes. And they come out from the wigwam and they dance around, and they sit down. Another one comes out and starts singing the same thing, sits down. And there would be about 20, and I used to watch them. But the women weren’t allowed to go in there, only men. I think maybe it was the Grand Council at that time. I didn’t know what it was.

JF:        You just saw it as a child. Did you learn that song as a child?

MJ:       Yeah.

JF:        Can you sing it?

MJ:       Yeah.

JF:        Try! Let’s hear it.

MJ:       I’ko, I’ko neh (MJ sings in Mi’kmaw)

JF:        What’s it about? what is it saying?

MJ:       I think it’s most like a feast, or a feast song. And after they all sing, and after they all sit around, they brought the food and they all eat, so I think it must be a feast, or a welcoming. I didn’t know what it was.

JF:        Trudy Sable, in your research about this, did you find as Margaret was saying, that there was a period of time when this was not going on, on the reserves?

TS:        Yeah, I find that, but I also find that more was going on than I thought (laughs) but then a lot in between – oh, it’s been expressed, fear of the priests not liking the dancing or the Mi’kmaw language or expression of Mi’kmaq culture, centralization that occurred I guess in the late 1940s that moved a lot of families to bigger and larger reserves, different elements that affected it in a – yeah, but there is, has been a period.

JF:        And, now there’s a growth again, and what kind of – Vaughan, what kind of reaction are you getting from people when you do this, when you perform it, and encourage other people?

VD:      Well, I have a problem with the word “perform” because it’s not a performance; it’s more like a form of worship. But I’m not going to get into that with you. (laughs)

JF:        No, I understand that though (laughs).

VD:      We’re getting good feedback. I’ve been involved in chanting for about eight years – traditionally, traditional chanting. I apprenticed with a group called Birch Creek from New Brunswick. At that time, they were the only group in the Maritimes, a drum group. And I learned with a gentleman named Tom Paul, from Eskasoni (Eskissoqnik). He was the lead singer from that group. So, there was just a small group of us, and we had to go to New Brunswick for our gatherings. And now it’s more in Nova Scotia now, and we go to Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island. And the people who were within our groups were what we call ‘traditionalists’ and people who are going back to traditional values and forms of worship and prayer and dance and all this. It was a small group, and now it’s larger. And now the people who had been giving us comments about what we were doing, now are coming into our circle, and it’s growing.

JF:        It’s growing.

VD:      Yeah, people are coming around

JF:        It’s really growing, and you’re getting asked to go to all these events all over the place now.

VD:      Yeah.

JF:        Um-hm. And one last word to Margaret. Are you encouraged by all of this, as an Elder looking at it all?

MJ:       Oh yeah, I’m very, very proud of them today. At first when they started, I wasn’t quite sure what they were doing, but now I like what they’re doing.

JF:        Well, I’d like to thank all of you for coming in and telling us about it today. And Trudy Sable, thanks very much. Trudy is going to be presenting a paper on Mi’kmaq dance at the One Island One World Conference in Baddeck this coming Saturday, and Vaughan Doucette will be with her in presentation of that paper. He is a Mi’kmaw drummer and chanter. And we also thank Margaret Johnson, who is an Elder from Eskasoni (Eskissoqnik), for joining us this morning.