The following interview is with Joseph L. Meuse on December 15, 2005 in the Sɨkɨpne’katik (Shubenacadie) First Nation.  It was conducted by Gary Joseph for Dr. Trudy Sable, then Director of the Office of Aboriginal and Northern Research, Saint Mary’s University, and a partner on the Native Dance project led and funded by Carleton University’s CIRCLE Institute. The research was used for the creation of a Native dance website featuring First Nations dances throughout Canada. (native-dance.ca)

The archiving of this interview was sponsored by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Center (MNFC) with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Initiative Program, 2018-2021.

GJ:        Let’s introduce ourselves. My name is Gary Joseph, I’m doing the interview. It’s December…15th, 2005. And I’m doing an interview with…

JM:       Joe, Joe Meuse. 

GJ:        And, how old are you? 

JM:       Fifty-seven. 

GJ:        Fifty-seven. And you were born? 

JM:       Here in Shubenacadie, Indian Brook. 

GJ:        And you’ve always lived here? 

JM:       Most of my life, yeah. 

GJ:        Can you just kind of talk about yourself a little bit?

JM:      I stayed in the States when I was young. Then we moved back home when I was just a teenager and been here pretty well quite a bit of my life. And then, going out over to the States, over in Maine, staying there, and then moved back home. 

 GJ:        So that was the 60s, 70s? 

JM:       Well, when I came back it was the 70s, almost the 80s. 

GJ:        My first question: we’re talking about Native dance, and when I’m saying Native dance, we’re talking about any kind of celebration ceremonies, or any kind of performances that you’ve been a part of or that you saw. And the first question says: Are you a dancer, a drummer, or a singer?

JM:       A dancer, Sun Dancer. 

GJ:        Okay. 

JM:       Been dancing fifteen years, when I started. What it was is that ours was missing, ours was lost. Now that we start dancing, start doing these ways and start dancing – it’s to help us to get it back again, so we can start doing our Mi’kmaw way again. 

GJ:       When did you, ah, how did you come across, how did you get connected with that – the Sun Dance? 

JM :     Well, it was my friends that told me about it. That if you want to Sun Dance, what we do is we go to South Dakota where he was dancing. He used to hike a long way just to do that. Then now, we all get-together and we all go way out there and dance. 

GJ:       Do you remember the kind of dances that they had here in Shubenacadie? What kind of get- togethers? 

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:       What do you remember about the dances that they had here? 

JM:       There wasn’t too much really, not really that much dances going, ‘cause what it was is that they started putting them away and never been using them. So, it was just more like, that they did a ceremony. Like my Grandfather, Martin Sack, when he did ceremonies, and all these Chiefs that used to get together and do ceremonies and they have their dances. I guess that’s what came to me, that I had to go and do this. (04:01) 

GJ:        Did they use drums? 

JM:       No. I think they did, yeah. 

GJ:        Any rattles or anything? 

JM:       Just drums, hand drums, yeah.

GJ:       I know they’ve talked about birchbark, something about a birchbark drum or… Have you ever seen anything about a birchbark…? 

JM:       Nope, I never did. 

GJ:        How about your mother? 

JM:       I don’t know. She might know that. 

GJ:        I’ll talk to her later, too. 

JM:       Yeah.  

GJ:        So, if you’re a dancer, what kind of dances do you present? 

JM:      Sun Dance. I go and I dance, and willing to give up my, the commitment I do is willing to give up my life for the prayers and help of the people.

GJ:       So, if someone is sick in your family?

JM:      Yeah, that’s what I’m doing. I’m out there dancing for them. I dance not only for my family, but I dance for everybody from afar who can’t make it there, the people that come there that are sick, to support them.

GJ:       How do you feel about the – what kind of regalia or, we’ll say costume for lack of a better word. What kind of outfit do you have to wear? 

JM:       We wear Sun Dance dress.

GJ:        Oh, yeah. Does it have to be a certain color? 

JM:       No, whatever you feel, then that’s what you dance with. It could be – a lot of us say we very seldom use black because out there, you know it’s 120 degrees in the shade…black is going to draw out all the heat, so nobody wants it (laughing) so they either go with white or yellow or red, and some go with blue. 

GJ;        Are there any other type of dances that you can sort of make a connection to the Sun Dance, that they might have had in Nova Scotia, or the Mi’kmaw people? I know they talk about the Ko’jua and stuff like that.

JM:       Yeah, but not really, I don’t think. But after, it will come, you know, in time. Once we learn these ways, and then it’ll … it’s sort of like a vision on what we’re doing (inaudible) and once the spirits come and tell us, “It’s time to go back to your ways”, and then that’s what we do. 

GJ:        So, you’re doing these other types of ceremonies to help you out? 

JM:       Yeah, yeah.

GJ:        I know there is a connection with the earth when you’re dancing. Could you explain that, or how from a Sun dancer’s …? 

JM:       When we go out there to dance, we go out there and dance to feel Mother Earth. It’s that we go there, we dance with nothing on, like our feet are bare and … we’re connected to the earth…the feeling help us. 

GJ:        I know one of the dances… that even when they talk about the Ko’jua and stuff like that, that there’s still a connection to the Earth in the same way, right? 

JM:       Yeah. 

GJ:        Same way, or similar. Could you please describe each of those dances, giving your context or rendition? 

JM:       Like when we start in the morning, that we greet the Sun for the people of the East – that they come. And then all those four directions – like what we do is we start in the morning from the East, South, North, and then West. But when the Sun is going down, we dance to them and then thank them for that good day and that we’ll be strong for next day. 

GJ:        Do you know how each one of those dances came into being? And are there any stories connected with those dances? And if so, would you be willing to share them? 

JM:       Not too much, because I’m still learning.

GJ:        Yeah.

JM:       When it’s time, then I’ll find…

GJ:        Yeah, it’s good to show that respect, eh. I know that when they sit and talk about Sun Dances they want to – it’s meant to help you out, but it’s also to protect. You’ve got to protect it, eh? I mean they –

JM:       Yeah. 

GJ:        – you don’t want to start – so it sort of takes off on you. Is the music that goes along with each dance particular to that purpose? If so, how do you tell the music from one dance to another? 

JM:       Yeah, each one of them is the dance that we start doing for each direction, and prayers for the spirits and for their help. Looking at the Sun draws us strength and help. 

GJ:       I want to ask a personal question here, but you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want to. Now, I know that the dreams and the visions are connections that sometimes they give us or tell us what they’re going to be doing, but would you be willing to share any information about – I guess, to try and make some connection to Mi’kmaw people? How does it, how do you, ah – without having to really explain what your dreams (are) about or what your visions about, how do you go back home and tell your Mom that, “This is what I’m doing now”, or my family. I’m not trying to convince them to join you, but… (both laughing) How does your Mother feel about it, how does your family feel about it? 

JM:       When my Ma, when I first told her that I was going to start doing these ways, the Sun dance, she didn’t want me to do it. Because it was like, she was holding in one hand – didn’t want me to go, and the Sun Dance was holding the other hand, pulling me, saying, “Let’s go”. And I said, “One of us has to let go – one of us”. So, what happened was my Mom… I said, “You have to let me go, because this is what I want to do. And don’t worry”. Because she thought I was going up there to get hurt. 

GJ:        Yeah.

JM:       And so she let me go. And after, after they had a few years after, she accepted it. And now she supports me and she’s there, and my brother who passed on, he supported me. He was there with prayers and everything. He was always, “How was the dance?”, and I said, “Good”. Yeah, I told him the prayers were good and “I prayed for this”, I said, “especially for our people to come, like the young ones, you know, that are growing up to be teenagers, just young teenagers and older ones and all the way up to the Elders.” I danced for all these people, especially the young teenagers with all the alcohol and the drugs that’s in our community. And that’s why I dance. I dance and pray for them because that’s a sickness in our community, because we’re going to lose a lot. Not only lose our way, but we’re going to lose a lot of them, our people. So that’s why it’s strong. That’s why I’m always out there dancing for them, not for myself, and for the Elders and help them to be healthy, give them all good health, happiness, and long life for everyone.

GJ:        Have you ever been to any of those Waltes, or old Mi’kmaw hand games and stuff like that?

JM:       Yeah, yeah. I was watching them play that Waltes.

GJ:        How long ago was that? Where was that?

JM:       That was down in, oh Jeez, now I even forget, I’ve been around so many places.

GJ:        Yeah.

JM:       We even had it one time up at the Multi-purpose Centre. One day when we had a powwow, a gathering, we had just a gathering of the people, and had these games, and that was one of them – Waltes. They played that.

GJ:        Because I know they said sometimes they become kind of a dance in themselves.

JM:       Yeah, look at it and shake it and put it down – then that’s dancing, and you could hear it, watching it.

GJ:        Yeah, I’d like to see it ‘cause l – well, any kind of game was always almost connected with body movement and stuff like that, and people always have their own style.

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        Did you see anybody that you could say, these guys been doing this for a long time?

JM:       Yeah. No, not really, because a lot of them, they just started coming back because they started losing it. Now it’s starting to come back a little more. Everybody is starting to get pretty well involved in it.

GJ:        What do they use?

JM:       Like a bowl, a wooden bowl. They use those.

GJ:        Just carved out, eh?

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        Have you ever seen one made? Or can you make one?

JM:       I probably could.

GJ:        It’s made out of a…

JM:       Wood, wooden bowl – you got to carve it out, a lot of work and preparations to it (laughing).

GJ:        Yeah, ceremony. What about the – have you seen or do they have any Ko’jua competitions over here? What’s Ko’jua to you?

JM:       I don’t know if they do or not, because I never been home for a while.

GJ:        Of the one’s that you’ve seen…ever seen ones in Cape Breton or someplace around Bear River or someplace like that?

JM:       Now, they’re trying to get all these things all going, you know. They’re not – I don’t know. Hopefully they would.

GJ:       How about your father, your grandparents or your father?

JM:       My grandfather, he was a man of many mysteries, that fellow (laughs)! We didn’t know what he was doing. If he did, then he didn’t say nothing about it.

GJ:        ‘Cause I know if there’s a strong faith in something, that comes from your grandparents or your parents. It’s a belief system, a strong belief system. I know that you don’t just pick up and start Sun Dancing the next day. There’s something more deeper than that…

JM:       …that’s connected, and that connection, what I believe, it came from my grandfather. And then after, must have been time in my heart what I felt, it’s time to do this.

GJ:        Yep.

JM:       Time to grow up, time to be a man, time to start doing this and never mind being a child and being foolish. To help the people, respect them…to help them in any way you can, like he did.

GJ:        That’s what those dances do, eh?

JM:       Yeah, yeah, they take you from a child and make you into a man.

GJ:        Yeah. Have you ever seen sung any songs that your grandparents or your parents might have shared with you?

JM:       No, not too much.

GJ:        Is there a particular musical instrument to be used with the voice for each dance?

JM:       No. Just at Sun Dances, just a Sun Dance drum.

GJ:        Okay. If so, would you please describe the instrument?

JM:       Which is a drum, a big drum it must be… It’s a real, sort of like a powwow drum that’s up so high – it’s big.

GJ:        What’s it made out of?

JM:       It’s made out of …those ones they make out there are made out of buffalo hide, put together.

GJ:        What about that drum, the rim or something?

JM:       The rim, it’s made out of pine or whatever they have out there. It’s all put together and then shaped in (?)

GJ:        What signals do the voices or the instruments give the dancer during the presentation?

JM:       They just… Okay! We just hit on the drum till we’re ready to dance, and then we have one fellow who comes by and he hollers, “Dancers, get ready!” (laughing).

GJ:        Usually you know, after you start hearing those songs, you know what songs mean which type of dancing.

JM:       Then we go in there and then we know which direction we’re going to dance.

GJ:        Okay. getting at. I know that a singer’s…if a drum is drummed a certain way, drummed a certain speed or drummed a certain song, that you know what’s going to happen next.

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        Or you know what song means which song.

JM:       Yeah, like each one of them…well, that song that they start…at that direction that’s where we stayed and we prayed that way and then that’s when we go when you know, your raising your hands for the help, pray.

GJ:        So there is a kind of a leader, director or a person who guides everyone?

JM:       Yeah there is a Sun Dance, what we call a Sun Dance Chief, Sun Dance leader that guides, takes us and puts us all in a line. And he’s there…

GJ:        He guides the process?

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        Can you describe how you feel while watching or participating in a dance? I know we talked about that thing about your connection with the grandparents and parents. (20:55)).

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        Well, there’s a little bit of personal stuff that goes into this question because it’s asking you to express your feeling. But like I said, you can keep it very simple or you can keep it wide open.

JM:       (laughing).

GJ:        How do you feel about that question? Can you describe how you feel while watching or participating in a dance?

JM:      It’s very seldom I’m watching. I’m always in there (laughing).

GJ:        Or participating in a dance?

JM:       I’m always participating.

GJ:        Can you describe how you feel?

JM:       How do I feel? I always feel good, you know, because I’m there and I know with that I get a feeling that I’m doing something to help the people – prayers, with their prayers. And if I see people after I come back from that, I feel good there. But when I get home and I see some of these young teenagers and stuff coming to me and saying, “Jeez”, they’re happy to see me. Next thing you know they’re telling me, you know, “I quit drink and I quit drugs and got myself a good job, got myself a good woman, and going straight”.

GJ:        Yeah.

JM:       Then what happens is that I say, “Out there when I was out there dancing and I came home and I see this, I know they went and they did answer my prayers, which makes me feel really good in my heart”. It may not get everyone that I been talking to and praying for, but at least I get a few of them.

GJ:        Getting results, eh.

JM:       Yeah, getting results. That’s the purpose of this. Maybe soon they’ll be doing these ways or going back and finding our ways again instead of finding their way in a bottle that leads to the drugs.

GJ:        It seems to be that it’s changing.  it’s just taking a different shape, but I think something has always been there. It’s a belief system – the Sun. How important is dance to expressing your culture and identity?

JM:       I dance for my identity. I do it for – not for myself, but for the people. And I don’t recognize or say anything about that because that’s for them, and if it’s for them and they get their help, then I’m happy. That’s all I want.

GJ:        How important do you think it is for the culture, for the Mi’kmaw culture?

JM:       It is, it’s really good, you know. It’s got to come back. There’s only just a few of us that are in these ways and doing these ways but it’s starting to get stronger and stronger as we’re out there dancing because a lot of them are starting to come back and saying, “Hey!” and starting to do these ways. They slip sometimes, but you can’t go and put them down for that. We help them to make them better and to make them stronger, eventually.

GJ:        Are there other dancers from Cape Breton also or different reservations, or?

JM:       Yeah, there’s some from Cape Breton, there’s some from Afton, and I’m the only one here so far. And all over, like up in New Brunswick, but there’s only just a handful of us that go that far.

GJ:        Mi’kmaw?

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        Okay, I’m trying to make some connection to Mi’kmaw culture.

JM:       …and that is part of it. After these teachings…what it is – it’s the same, it’s the same as ours. When we first started, we were all together as a family and everything. And then when our people wasn’t fighters so what they did instead of staying over in the States is that they moved, and they moved over to Canada and when they got over here they sort of separated. Some came down East parts, some stayed up in New Brunswick and Cape Breton, so they spread out and that’s the way they were, to be peaceful and don’t have to fight. Well, over there they left their other family over there – the Sioux, the Blackfoot, and everybody. They go and do all this fighting and stuff because we didn’t want no part of it, we wanted – we’re a peaceful people, you know. And we were doing that then, but as we moved, that’s why we went and lost all that. So now it’s time to get it back and that’s what we’re doing.

GJ:        I mean the Sun comes up here first, right?

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        So that relationship with the Sun is already there even before you get out West.

JM:       Yeah, and now that’s why we moved down here, so that we’d be close to it.

GJ:        Did they ever have any pipe ceremonies, your ancestors? Were they involved in any pipe ceremonies?

JM:       Yeah.

GJ:        I know they had pipes here a long time ago, but they were different. Some were for smoking and for regular use, and some for ceremonies.

JM:       Yeah. Yeah, well, my pipe, my bowl is red which represents all nations, all colors and it doesn’t matter what color, what race, everyone is the same. When you take and you cut yourself, you bleed the same, you bleed the same color. That’s why we’re used to red blood. That’s what I know in that way, but I don’t know about the other colors or Mi’kmaq. They probably did have other pipes, but I don’t know any of them.

GJ:        You ever live in Bear River?

JM:       Yeah, I stayed down there. That’s where my dad was from, before he moved up here.

GJ:       Which year do you think he moved up here: 50s, 40s, 30s? It was before you were born anyway, or right after you were.

JM:       It was close to 60 years ago. He went to war, World War II, and when he came back, that’s when he went and married my mom.

GJ:        You guys moved over here?

JM:       Yeah. Gosh, he went and told her, “When I come back, I’m going to marry you. You better be waiting for me.” (laughing).

GJ:        So you have a lot of cousins down in Bear River?

JM:       Yeah, Bear River is all my relations, all my nokamaq. (laughing)

GJ:        Okay

JM:       Yeah, the Sun Dance. The Sun Dance been here, but what happened was it didn’t last. So being out there, going back out West, is to find it again, and it’s going to take a while. Maybe I have to go out there and go on a fast and have a vision quest. Find out more about what’s going on. Everything that’s now come, all at once. It takes time, and that’s where patience is part of our…part of it. We’ll have it back here soon, hopefully. If you pray hard enough! (laughter).

GJ:        Okay, thank you very much Joe.

JM:       You’re welcome.