Margaret Johnson and Caroline Gould Interview

Dec. 12, 2005

The following interview was with Margaret Johnson and Caroline Gould (both deceased) in Margaret Johnson’s home in Eskissoqnik (Eskasoni), Nova Scotia. It was conducted by

Dr. Trudy Sable on December 12, 2005 as part of the Native Dance Project in partnership with and sponsored through the CIRCLE Institute, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada. The research was used to help create the Native Dance Website, a site featuring the dances of Indigenous cultures throughout Canada for Grades 7 and 8 students. (http://native-dance.ca/en/home/)

Sponsorship for the archiving of this video and related material is through the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre, Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding through the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Initiatives Program (2018-2021).

Translation and Transliteration: Kenny Prosper

TS        This is a project having to do with First Nations dance, Mi’kmaw dance. It’s for children in grades 7 and 8 and people are very interested in hearing what dances you remember growing up, as Mi’kmaw women, and when you danced, and what kind of dances you’d do. So, if you could just talk about whether you danced when you were young, or times you might’ve seen Mi’kmaw dancing when you were growing up.

MJ       I used to dance, but Caroline never danced yet. She might show you how.

TS        That’d be nice.

MJ       I was brought up with my parents. My father used to sing for us, but about the same songs Ko’jua aqq Jukw’lu Kwe’ji’juow. Then he used to sing this song, Wkwat-teme’ji’jk wkwatji’j. He used to sing that, and we used to dance.

TS        Is that the song about the dog?

MJ/CG Yes.

MJ       My dog is (Mi’kmaw) what…? Broken paw or whatever. How do you call it?

CG      It’s a broken foot, I think.

MJ       Yeah. Teme’ji’jk wkwatji’j [My dog has a broken paw/foot].  His name was (Mi’kmaw word). My father used to sing that song, and nobody else knows it in Eskasoni. You can put that up if you want (referring to a window shade behind T.Sable).

TS        Okay, go ahead.

MJ       And he used to sing songs and tell us stories in the evening. He’d tell us about the partridge and his wife, and their two children. Do I have to tell the whole story about partridge?

TS        Only if you want to.

MJ       Well anyway, their mother was a widow, and she used to go out and drinks quite a bit. So, the kids got tired of her, so they put her out. They told her, “We don’t want you anymore.” This boy and girl. So, she went a long, long time. One day she came back and she said, “It’s me, my daughter. It’s me, my son. Wmlakejmk ne’itqekeji.” She pulled her breast, she pulled her titties out, “You’re my son.” Another one, “You’re my daughter.” So they pick up a dry meat and gave it to her and told her to, “Get out, we don’t need you.”  So that’s the end of the story. It’s a little bit more but that’s the end of it, when they drove her out.

CG      She took off, eh?

MJ       Yeah. So, another one was rabbit and turtle racing. I don’t have to tell the story. And then the other one was crow and the fox. Crow was holding cheese in his mouth and fox was trying to get it.  And so, he let it go. He told her that, “You’re a good singer. I like your songs.” So, when she starts singing, he told her to,“”Sing me a song.  So, when she start, “Caw! Caw!”  She dropped the cheese and he grabbed it, ran away with it. That’s the story. Then, what was the other one?

TS        These are ones your father would tell you?

MJ       Yeah. Then we were living in this house, 18 by 20, or 16 by 20, one floor. We all sleep upstairs,12 of us. Everyone had a straw tick and my mother used to make quilts out of old coats, old pants. Stuff like that. And we used to get blankets from the government, black ones and grey ones—they wouldn’t give us white ones; they kept it in their office. And he used to, um (say something in Mi’kmaw quietly). Anyway, he was telling a lot of stories and lots of things.

My mother and I, we used to go selling baskets. We made baskets, I was 8 when I started making baskets. I suppose Caroline was the same. And we learned how to make…we started with the small, little ones and then we made them bigger, bigger, bigger, till we could make hampers, clothes baskets, shopping baskets, and different kinds of baskets—those fancy baskets with the covers, cone baskets, a lot of different kinds. Then my mother would go somewhere and sell them, and we’d take old clothes and whatever they give us. If they don’t have money we take trade, like sugar, tea, and stuff like that, because we need lots of stuff. And we brought a whole lot of stuff.  Pork from Havre Bouche and tea and sugar, here and there, soap and everything, we got lots of stuff…old clothes. And then we, my mother used to make things over. One time I remember, she made…my skirt was short in front, so she cut the other old skirt, she took the back part and put it in front of my skirt, my dress. She’d just sew it on here. So, when the teacher saw me with my dress, I suppose she pitied me. One day we seen the material and stuff she brought so one day she beckoned me, and she made my dress. I suppose she pitied me when I had this patch in front. Anyway, that’s the way we were when we were young. But we’re not poor, we had lots of stuff. Like we had four cows, a horse, bull. My father used to use this bull to carry his wood from the island, Chapel Island to home. We were living alongside Chapel Island.

Anyway, we got lots of milk, lots of cream, butter, stuff like that. Fish, all kinds of fish. My father salt herring in July, and in fall, in November, he killed one pig and he’d salt it, then he killed another pig before New Year’s, and the he’d hang the hindquarters, the legs? We didn’t have no fridge or anything; we just had a little house, dairy? And my father hung it up, and, in wintertime, its frozen. And he used to chop it off with the axe and my mother would cook it. So, and we got lots of dry cod, lots of herring, pork, and we plant lots of potatoes. Our bins in the cellar, they’re full with turnips and carrots and potatoes. So, we never was poor, but we didn’t have no money, that’s the only thing. But we had everything. My father used to take the butter and sell it in the boats when the boats come in summertime.

 And he sold a lot of cod. They packed up like shingles, packed like this, about this high, about this big (shows how big). And he used to take bundles in the boats and sell them, and then he used the money for sugar and tea and stuff like that. So, I don’t think we ever were poor, but a lot of people were so poor they don’t even have anything. They used to come down, after my father fished in the morning, when he cuts the cod and cuts them. And they save the heads; they took the heads. They brought big pails and they put the heads in a pail, take it home to cook. And, (Mi’kmaw, asking what you call it. Caroline says “Guts”) Guts. You know the guts of cod, you can empty it, and liver?  Clean these little bags like little socks. My mother used to put liver in there and tie them up and then she cooked them in the pot. Boy, they’re delicious. Nobody know how delicious they are. I don’t think anyone cooks them today, but my gosh they were delicious, huh? (Mi’kmaw, 11:54) we called them.

We learned a lot of stuff from our father and mother; they teach us everything. We used to make quilts in the evenings. My mother had cut up all the stuff from the old clothes, cut the squares, then we sewed them together. After we sewed them all up, then put them together long enough for the quilt. And then she used to wash horse (?) bags. She washed them and she used them for the lining, and then flour bags were,100 pound bags. You used 4 to make a cover, a lining for the quilt and bags all washed up and sewed together. And we used to make our own quilts. So, we still used to make quilts. I don’t know if Caroline ever made quilts, but I did.

CG      Made lots of them.

MJ       Made lots of them? Anyway, what else can I tell you?

TS        How did you learn to dance?

CG      We’re supposed to tell her about the dance.

MJ       I learned to dance from my father. My father used to sing for us, and he had us on the floor and we all danced. And that’s where I learned my Ko’jua, Jukw’lu Kwe’ji’juow, and all those.

            [Phone interruption]

MJ       …learned to dance, and I used to go to old people who was living there, not very far from us, Andrew Alec and his wife, old people

TS        Andrew who?

CG      Alec.

MJ       When I go over there, they said, “Margaret, can you dance?” I said, “Yes.” “Alright,” he said, “I want you to dance for me.” So, I danced. I danced Ko’jua. Then he says, “Can you step dance?” I said, “Yes, I can step dance.” And he said, “Well, let’s try, let me see you.” So he was singing for me and I danced, step danced. So, one day he asked for me to come over. I went over. He said, “We’re going to Simon Cremo’s, and you’re gonna dance over there. He’s gonna play the fiddle.” So we went over to Simon Cremo’s. I suppose I was a good dancer when he took me over there, huh? So, Simon Cremo laughed after I finished dancing.  He told her to sing this song, play this song for Margaret.

TS        What was the song?

MJ       So, the old fella lead me to step dancing. And I was step dancing, boy, I was happy. And when I finished, my God, Simon Cremo laughed and laughed. I said, “Am I a good dancer?” He said, “You’re a champion.” So, I used to step dance after that. I won a prize one time. There was judges, Noel Marshall. And Simon Marshall, he always bragged that he was a good dancer and that he was teached by the white people how to dance. So, Simon and I, we danced. So,Noel Marshall and the boys, they put my name on the first one, the best. I got the first prize. And Simon was mad. “Oh, Noel Marshall he just done that for me for purpose,” and he was mad cause he was teached by the white people and I was teached by this old man. And that’s the story of my dancing. I was a good step dancer.

TS        Can you just talk a little bit back about when you first started, with all of you? Both you and Caroline? Was it always Ko’jua dancing?

MJ       Well we started in the house, and my father used to tell us, all of us used to dance. My father used to tell us to get everybody ready, we’re gonna dance. So, we start singing, and we’d dance, dance around the stove. Our stove was in the middle, and we’d dance around there, and he said we were good dancers. I was the best dancer, Ko’jua. And that’s where I learned from my father.

TS        Do you have memories Caroline?

CG      Oh yes.

TS        Do you want to share some of your memories?

CG      Well I suppose, you know all of us were dancing; there were so many of us.

MG      John and Peter, they wouldn’t (?) dance. Esther.

CG      Yeah. Some of us wouldn’t dance. Maybe just a few of us. But I remember I used to dance when I was small. But when I grow up I didn’t dance. Like Ko’jua. But I used to go to square dances. A lot of people, young people, dance Ko’jua because, like Christmas,  Christmas season they have this, uh…I don’t know how I call it.  [Margaret says, Pestie’wa’taqatimk] Pestie’wa’taqatimk. Like it seems like, to me, it’s like giving away Christmas presents or whatever.

MJ       Yeah, they made like a cross…

CG      Like during Christmas season, like from Christmas until epiphany.

MJ       Different names.

CG      Yeah, like Christmas, New Years, and Epiphany. They have like feast going on, Christmas, and uh. You want me to tell you the whole thing?

TS        Yeah, that would be good. Should we get the cross, too?

CG      No, they started Christmas eve, and they go to the school house.

TS        Who’s they?

CG      The whole reserve. But they don’t go to church. We never had Mi’kmaw mass or anything because we live in country.

MJ       I don’t think there was mass, cause there was a priest in St. Peters.

CG      No, I don’t think so. Just Saint Peters, but they have a mission church in Salmon River, but the priest don’t come there at Christmas time. But the Indian people on the reserve go to, um…

MJ       Schoolhouse.

CG      Schoolhouse, and they pray, oh, must be for two hours. They prayed. And everybody takes their food like, they take a plate, and put maybe pie, or some kind of cake or bread.

MJ       Roast pork.

CG      And they all, after prayers, must be for about two hours starting at twelve, and they pray for a long time. Sing all these Christmas hymns and prayers. And when they finish these two guys put a sheet on the table. There used to be a, like, a platform where the desk it, where the teacher’s desk is. They move the desk and they put sheet and put all the food and cut it up, and they used to have a stove right in the middle and the teapots were on the kettles for their tea. And they cut up all this food, like some people take a family pie, big plates…

MJ       Gingerbread.

CG:     Or gingerbread. Homemade bread, raisin bread, everything. And they all cut it up and they exchange it, in the plates. They put so much of this, so much of that. Then what’s left, they share that and give it to the young people because they didn’t bring anything, just the (inaudible), and they gave to the young people. And then they have tea, and I think we’re there until daylight, and they have a meeting where they gonna have this Pestie’wa’taqatimk that same night.

MJ       Where they’re gonna start.

CG      Where they’re gonna start, and they made…(Interruption)

TS        So that happened after the feast, and people would decide?

CG      Well, they started Pestie’wa’taqatimk early in the evening. And where they started where they picked the house, where they’re gonna start, they make, they call it a flower. I’ll show you. This is what they make (holds up shaved cross) (They call it?) a flower. And there’s a guy that carries it, makes them, and they put a medal (Caroline shows putting a medal on the cross) and there’s a guy there who makes all these Pestie’wa’taqatimk that’s the flowers.

CG      Yeah, there’s a guy that makes these flowers, they call it flowers, and they put a medal on each. Like the first night, they give these presents to Johns, the names John (MJ: Sa’n) And (Mi’kmaw for Theresa) is Theresa. (Mi’kmaw name) I don’t know the name of it in Mi’kmaw. So that’s first night, Johns, Theresa, (Mi’kmaw name)). And, the next night, start on the other end, the next night is Stevens, Steven and Noel. And they go from house to house. The first one is John, they go on one end, and when they got there, they bring this…whoever carries this, they gave it to this guy and says –

MJ       Wla’ktuasuekm

CG      Yup. We brought you this flower and your guardian angel sent you this. And they cover it with something.

MJ       Sometimes.

CG      Sometimes a scarf, or.

MJ       Old (inaudible)

CG      Or shirt, flour bags (difficult to hear because both talking). They always cover this. And there’s always a medal in the middle. So, they gave this to this John or Theresa, whoever. Then they’d dance. When they got there they’d dance, and everybody got small house. Most of the time we have stoves in the middle. And they’d tell them you have to dance in order to get food; you have to earn it. So, there’s a fiddler and there’s this guy playing Ko’jua that’d sit on the floor, and he had this little stick.

All       Ji’kmaqn

MJ       You seen one. You got it? The one that…

TS        The split ash one?

MJ       Yeah, the ash one.

CG      And sings, and everybody dance around. When they’re finished once, one more time, then they’d go around one more time. Then they do the same thing, they put something on the floor and these two guys, they prepare this and serve the people. Sometimes they’d have rabbits too, or eel soup—it depends on what they have, I suppose.

MJ       Yeah.

CG      Yeah. But most of the time, Christmas time, I remember most of th eimtethey have…

            [Interruption when phone rings]

CG      And they’re dancing, started eating. So when they finishI eating, this guy makes a cross again, do the same thing. (MJ: The cross is already there.) No, it doesn’t take long to make one. I think he makes one while they were preparing. And everybody danced Kojua.

MJ       Jukw’lu Kwe’ji’juow

TS        How many people would be dancing, would be at the house at one time?

MJ       We were about 20, 25.

CG      More than 20 or 25, must’ve been 30.

TS:       Men and women, children?

MJ       The more we get further, the more we get people. And at the end of it, they dance a square dance, last house (phone interrupts)  All night.

CG      I don’t know why they call it Wasuek.

TS        What is it called?

CG      Wasuek, like a flower

MJ       Wla’ktuasuekm, katansale’m peji apu’s, sapo’nuk, kna’ko’m.

 [Margaret and Caroline continue to speak in Mi’kmaw]

TS        Does the word Pestie’wa’taqatimk mean anything in particular? How do you say it properly?

MJ       When he pass it to a person, he says, “Here’s your flower. Your angel sent it to you. Tomorrow is your day.” I don’t know what that means, tomorrow. Maybe it doesn’t start until next day. (Margaret and Caroline speak in Mi’kmaw). Your angel, our angel.

CG      Means Guardian angel.

MJ       It’s guardian angel. Sent it.

TS        But what’s the word, how do you say it?  Pestie’wa’taqatimk? What does that mean?

CG      Pestie’wa’taqatimk is you’re doing something like…

MJ       Giving presents.

CG      Like giving this, like presents or giving this to certain people, like Johns, that’s for first night. Then the next night you do the same thing and start on the other end again and do the same thing.  And, you give this same thing, told them the same thing again, and eat at every house—they’re expecting you at every house—you eat and you dance, and then go to the next place again.

TS        That’s a lot of dancing.

CG      A lot of dancing.

TS        How many houses?

MJ       I don’t know how many houses.

CG:     Well sometimes maybe 15, 20.

TS        In one night?

CG      One night. Because there’s lots of Johns, And Theresas.and Santus (?)

MJ       Names like that.

CG      Yeah. But if you don’t have a name like that, you’re not…. And uh, then New Years, what they do is…

MJ       (Speaks in Mi’kmaw)

CG      Yup.

MJ       They go the same place, pray, and eat, and they bring the stuff.

CG      They do the same thing again. Bring food and share, exchange.

MJ       And then those last ones, I don’t know who they were. (Speaks Mi’kmaw). I don’t know which ones were the last ones.

CG:     Honest to god, I forget. Like New Year’s Eve, they don’t do anything. Sometimes you hear guns, they were shooting up in the air.

MJ:      That’s the time they pick the queen.

CG      No.

MJ       (Speaks in Mi’kmaw about picking the queen).

CG      No, that’s Epiphany. But I forget, there’s something, somebody… On New Years. Maybe just Stevens. Maybe the second night Noels, huh?

MJ       Or Johns.

CG      It’s a long time ago. It’s been over…

MJ       70 years.

CG      1936 was the last time I went to Pestie’wa’taqatimk because after that they didn’t do that anymore where I go, after I was married in Whycocomagh, they didn’t…

MJ       When they move here, they don’t start anything like that.

TS        Moved where? Eskasoni?

MJ       From Chapel Island.

CG      Centralization. Like Centralization, they don’t…that’s when everything is (MJ: closed) cut off or…they don’t do it anymore. Like all this Pestie’wa’taqatimk. And like Epiphany, because that’s the time, like, they pray again in school, and then they pick king and queen, and it’s sort of like concert that they do, but like they do at the school, they draw names. They put like queen, or king, and they put them in a hat, and they draw them. And whoever picks the name king is going to be the king and do the same with queen.

MJ       Then they take the Pestie’wa’taqatimk again.

CG      Mmhmm. But they don’t do much of Ko’jua when they celebrate for king and queen. That’s the time they do the square dancing, and step dancing. But they don’t do much of Ko’jua, maybe just one round or two. But they dance all night, square dance.

TS        With Ko’jua, did it matter, men, women altogether? Could you dance altogether, men and women, children?

CG      Everybody.

TS        It didn’t matter, you didn’t have to go man, woman, man, woman, or, didn’t matter, just anywhere?

CG      Nope, it doesn’t matter. (Difficult to hear, but think she says, “As long as they’re having a feast again.)

MJ       As long as the man is a king, and the woman is a queen.

TS        But when you do Ko’jua dancing, it doesn’t matter the order?

CG      No. at first the king and queen dance they dance, but after their first dance, don’t matter.

TS        Do the men and women do the same Ko’jua dance? Are they different movements for men?

CG      I don’t think so, no.

MJ       They don’t do any difference.

TS        No difference? Arms, or legs?

CG      They’re good dancers, but today when they dance,  mostly they’re…

MJ       Young teenagers.

CG      Their Ko’jua is like a rock and roll dance I’ve noticed. (laughs) But you see Checker, and Marie, she’s a good dancer. Her father was a good Ko’jua dancer. And Checker. The ones I remember at Chapel Island.

MJ       Checker (Jekr) John (Sa’n), Marie’s father, Matti’j, Nuel Ma’si, MattioLui

CG.      Oh, there’s quite a few of them. They were all quite good dancers.

MJ       Men.

CG      Men. But not too many women. Maybe Margaret and who else?

MJ       Marie.

CG      I mean your times.

MJ       I don’t remember. I remember I used to dance.

CG      I never danced at Pestie’wa’taqatimk.

MJ       (Speaks Mi’kmaw).

CG      They were older ladies.

MJ       Yeah, they were older ladies that they used to dance.

TS        Why didn’t you dance, Caroline?

CG      I don’t know, I just too shy, I think.

TS        So why did it stop at centralization? What happened?

CG      I really don’t know why, everybody on the reserves. But I know Whycocomagh, why they quit doing that. They were having a problem at this one certain house. I suppose that’s what…like in our times, like all night and all these occasions, like all these feasts, like Christmas day, at night, next night, New Years, New Year’s night, and Epiphany, doing this all night you wouldn’t see anybody even…you couldn’t smell liquor anywheres, or you weren’t drinking or they were just sober. Everybody was so sober them days.

MJ       They weren’t allowed to go in the liquor store. Some of them used to make homebrew, but they don’t go anywhere.

CG      Oh yes. But I think that’s what bothers them in Whycocomagh at that time. Somebody was drinking, and they were having this Pestie’wa’taqatimk at this certain house, and they were eating. I don’t know if it was Epiphany, I think, because they were on a table like a wedding, a big table. I wasn’t there. I wasn’t married yet and this guy was drinking and came in and just took the table and just (shows flipping table).

TS        Wow.

CG      So the Grand Chief, and the Grand Chief Sylliboy, and he was there. So, after that, like, they used to have prayers in church every Sunday in Whycocomagh.

MJ       No priest.

CG      There was no priest coming there…living in Glendale, and at that time there was no cars or anything.Anyway, they used to say a prayer, like 10:00 every Sunday, and told them, “From now on, we’re not going to have Pestie’wa’taqatimk on this reserve.” They just cut them off. “I wouldn’t allow this on reserve.”

TS        Who said that?

CG      The Grand Chief.

TS        Oh, the Grand Chief Sylliboy said that.

CG      So they didn’t have Pestie’wa’taqatimk after that. And it stopped, I don’t know. In Eskasoni, or in Chapel island, until maybe early 40s when I think the people got all mixed up. Centralization, and everything was different.

TS        In what way? Can you talk about that a little bit? What happened?

CG      Everyone was saying prayers in Mi’kmaw. One of the first things they brought…

MJ       Sisters.

CG      The nuns, and they built a school, and they were going to build houses with running water and everything so we’ll be taking a bath every day, clean. And uh, when the priests came and when they sang in church, they used to sing in church in Mi’kmaw, so when this priest came he just wouldn’t allow that. He just told them to quit that noise back there, so he wouldn’t want anybody to sing in Mi’kmaw.

TS        Were these Christian hymns? Were these Catholic hymns?

CG      Catholic priest, yes.

MJ:      And Catholic hymns.

TS        So he didn’t want you singing the hymns in Mi’kmaw even though they were Catholic hymns?

CG      Ah, yes. He was a priest from the Diocese of Antigonish. And the nuns, the Sisters of Saint Martha, and they would, like after they started school, they…nobody say prayers in Mi’kmaw from now on. It’s all English. If you don’t learn that, you couldn’t  receive first holy communion. So that’s when they stopped everything. That’s why everybody forgot the prayers in Mi’kmaw. Next thing was the language, and all these traditions like this Pestie’wa’taqatimk.  And, when somebody was sick…one time, we were all, uh, people do everything, like a priest, because there was sometimes, a person don’t get a priest, or  priests just weren’t burying Indian people, until just lately, …when priest came to Eskasoni, and in Whycocomagh, I think it was in maybe the late 50s.

MJ       They used to bury their own.

CG      Or 60s. They were buried, uh, the Indian people, they said their prayers or doing a wake. I remember… maybe I shouldn’t say this. Like um.

[Margaret and Caroline speak in Mi’kmaw]

MJ       Oh. Annointed.

CG      No. In sixties, we were living here for 17 years in Eskasoni and all our children growing up here.  When all of them through schools, and went to high schools, cause they don’t have high school here. They have to go to boarding schools. So when they all went to boarding schools, we moved back to Whcocomagh. It’s in 1960.

MJ       Shubenacadie, huh? Boarding school?

CG      No. Mabou and Arichat. When they grow up, go to high school.

MJ       Yup.

CG      And when people, this is way back, when somebody gets sick, they go and pray and pray, and after they died, there’s certain prayers.

[Interruption and break in tape]

TS        Centralization.

CG      So, when people were sick, sometimes I don’t think they see the doctor, some reserves. And people get sick and people most like prayer leaders, well most of them are prayer leaders I think, everybody know prayers. I don’t know if they were religious or Christians, I don’t know what to call them, but they were great. They were very strong with their religion. Of course, they didn’t see a priest every Sunday like today. Today they see a priest every Sunday, and they don’t seem to go to church, just a few of them sitting in the…when you go to church, just a few of them are going. But one time the church just full.

MJ       Yeah, Peter Cremo was the leader, like a priest.

CG      Same thing with Whycocomagh– Levi Poulette. Honest to God, and the Grand Chief. He’s a great man. (MJ: He was holy.)  When he preach, and they pray…exactly they do the same thing as mass.

MJ       Like he does Kyrie, the Credo, everything. Like what they sing in church, they sing that from the start until the end.

CG      When somebody gets sick, they go and pray and pray until they died and after they died. There was nobody who’d take that person to undertakers; they don’t fix them up like today. So, at times, they couldn’t, because there were…for three days, sometimes they couldn’t stand the uh, especially in the summertime. They have to bury that person (the day?) before…

MJ       They used to make coffins here in the mill. Jedodre was making them. Peter Jeddore from Newfoundland?

CG      I forget.

MJ       Anyway, Jeddore was the man that used to make coffins. And they’d make their clothes for the person that dies. They’d get so much material, they’d dress him up, and they’d sing and pray and they put him in the casket, and then he was buried, I think, couple days after.

CG      And same thing again. People say prayers, there was no priest or anything.

MJ       They bury their own.

TS        And these were all Catholics?

CG      Yes, and these are all Catholics, I think in 60. First time I see in Whycocomagh buried people, when father Rankin came in 59, cause the year after we moved back, and he used to bury people. He wouldn’t miss. He was so surprised when Roddy told him that, they don’t…what happens with his uncle, because we didn’t get to his funeral. We missed that because…and it’s only a little ways. We were in (?) and one of the staff in the office came and told Roddy that he was already buried because they didn’t embalm him. So, we were doing something, collecting money. We  organized and get money.

MJ       Everybody gave something.

CG      Everybody pays. (MJ says something). No, we were collecting so much at first. Then after that we pulled 25 cents a month or something like that. We have a kitty like. But, after, not too long after, the Department pays so much.

MJ       We have salite’

CG      Yah, auction. They cover…today it’s no problem. But one time, we were…

MJ       Just Indians.

CG      Yup.

TS        So when did the priest actually come and start taking over the mass from the leaders.

CG      The year, it was in…

MJ       ‘59? Whcycocomagh,

CG      Whycocomagh in 59.

MJ       But they didn’t come here before that, the priest?

CG      Oh yes, he was already here. We moved here in ‘43. Maybe ‘44, ‘45, because I was sick in 45 and the priest was already here. So, the priest was here, like, he get the house for him… he used to be coming from Christmas Island.

TS        Was that part of Centralization, to have priests and nuns here?

CG      Mmhmm. Yes. Because they built big schools. They were teaching up to…

MJ       Grade 8.

CG      Was it grade 8? Yes. Then they had to go to boarding schools. Arichat or Mabou.

TS        Were those residential schools?

CG      No, they were run by the nuns. But they’re not residential schools. It’s just boarding schools for everybody, not just the Indians but for everybody. All across Nova Scotia, some of them were from Newfoundland.

TS        What were you told when you had to move? Why did you have to move from Chapel Island here?

CG      We were living in Whcycomagh. I wasn’t in Chapel Island.

TS        During centralization.

CG      I was supposed…we weren’t here, we were in…This was war time, huh? We were living in Hantsport. We used to move like gypsies. Here and there and here. Anyway, when we hear this Centralization, I suppose they were having meetings, white people, like the government. When government wants to do something, and I suppose they were having meetings because we were scattered. So, they thought you know,, all these five reserves, if they can move them in one place, and they can build schools, they’ll have the priests, and the nuns will teach, and the doctor. So, everything would be here. And everybody moved here, and they built homes with running water. We lived here 17 years but we didn’t see running water. We already moved back in 1960 and they just started digging the water line. There was no big machines in 1960; it’s all done by manpower, digging water line. And so, we didn’t have running water, or nice bathrooms or things like that.

MJ       And they told us that you’ll get a nice house, everything in it, stove, fridge, and everything. And whatever you need you’ll get it, like beds or stuff like that. We don’t  got nothing now. We lived in a house without even gyprock on the wall, just the frame. We lived there for God knows, until I went around to sell baskets. I didn’t have no running water, or fridge, or bathtub, or toilet. So, I went to Antigonish and I took my baskets and I know quite a few people there, and I told them that I’m selling my baskets to get the bathtub and bathroom, and pipes and all that and it’s gonna cost me quite a bit. So a lot of people, they gave me money, they buy baskets from me, and I made about $400, %500, 3 or 4 days while I was peddling baskets. And I bought washtub, the bathtub, and the bowl and pipes, but I got a man to do the job for me. That’s what I did, I buy everything. That’s the old house.

CG      Well we had electricity when we were here. I don’t know when we get the electricity, after we moved here. I don’t remember. Anyway, we have electricity. We have a nice house because my husband was a carpenter and he fixed all the inside. We had a nice home. We have electricity but we didn’t have running water.

TS        So at that point, Ko’jua.

CG      They didn’t even have that in ‘43 when we moved here. I think that Ko’jua disappeared.

MJ       Disappeared, until lately.

CG      Disappear. War time. I think war time too, plus the Centralization, people get all mixed up especially when they moved here. And all the people moved. There was about half of them on Chapel Island moved here. Mostly the ones live towards the shore, where we used to live. My parents were living there; they moved here.

MJ       Prospers.

CG      Prospers, Andrew Alec. Just about half, and the other ones on the upper end, they didn’t move. It’s the same thing in Whycocomagh, mostly everybody moved, maybe just 6 or 7 families, 5 or 6 left, didn’t go. And they were going to close the church. Imagine.

MJ       Whcycocmagh?

CG      Yeah. That was in 50’s I think.

TS        You mean because there were so few families?

CG      There were about 5 families. And they didn’t know anything about it until just a short time, I don’t know who tell them or… if the priest, I forget who the priest was there. So these three guys from Whycocomagh, they were there and they go to Antigonish to see the priest. No, not the priest, Bishop. They go and see the Bishop. And the Bishop was so surprised that they didn’t know and they didn’t tell them, and he was ready to announce it I suppose, and they told him not to close it down because they’re still using it, and they still go to church every Sunday. And when somebody died they used that, and so the Bishop didn’t close it, but he got this letter from the government I think and told the Bishop that nobody’s there, they all moved to Eskasoni. Of course, not all of them, but five families were still there, and they didn’t want that church to be closed, and it’s still there. I think it was Williams boy, Andrew Phillips, and John Sam.  (In Mi’kmaw, as translated by Kenny Prosper, this last line is: Telte’tm Sulia’n Silipay, Antle Pilips, aqq Sa’n Sa’m naji ankama’tipn Kjipa’tlia’sl.)

MJ       They went to see the Bishop.

CG      The three of them.

End of Tape