Interview with Joey Gould Mi’kmaw Dance Interview, Part 1

With Trudy Sable

The following is an interview with Joey Gould was conducted by Dr. Trudy Sable on December 19, 1990 in Afton’s (Paqtnkek) Community Center. It was done as part of her Master’s thesis on Indigenous knowledge and creating a cross-cultural science curriculum for Mi’kmaw students entitled, Another Look in the Mirror: Research into the Foundations for the Developing and Alternative Science Curriculum for Mi’kmaw Children (1996). Also present were Brian Guns and Dennault Blouin. Sponsorship for the archiving of this and other interviews is by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Center, Halifax, Nova Scotia (MNFC), with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage Aboriginal Initiatives Program.

TS        Could you tell us about how you learned dance?

JG        I learned it from my father, Andrew Gould, and it all started when we used to go to missions in Chapel Island; it’s near St. Peter’s. It’s a place where all the Mi’kmaq gather in the summertime to celebrate the feast of St Ann. And they’re from all over from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, whatever. And mostly, I think, if I remember right, like Saturday afternoons and after the feast of St Anne, like from the church to where the stand is were our guest speakers, and VIPs, and the leaders do the talking—that’s about an hour—then everybody going back to the church, and after mass, we’d have a big meal, everybody has a meal. Later on, in the afternoon, that’s when we’d start to celebrate. I think that’s where Ko’jua came from, celebration—celebrate, in my way anyway, to celebrate the feast of St Anne’s. To get this going, and this is where Ko’jua comes in, we all started in a circle. It’s hard to explain sometimes.

I remember there was another group of people from Membertou (Maupeltu). Now there used to be a sort of like a competition. To us, like my father’s group and our style of Ko’jua…like the Kabatay (also sometimes spelled Kabatty), the Kabatay family, their style of dancing was sort of different. Like our dancing was the real Ko’jua I would say. It was would sort of like we would never dance with the Kabatay group. We would wait until they were finished and then my father would start chanting the Ko’jua and usually we would start off with the elders, like Noel Stevens, Wilfred Prosper, there was another fellow from Whycogomaugh (We’koqma’q), Joe Prosper—he was a good dancer himself, and then us young people—my family, my sister, Joan, Richard, me, there was Wilfred; he passed away. They were never interested in Ko’jua at all. They were sort of like forced into the dancing.

[Note:  According to Kenny Prosper, Noel Stevens was from Waqmɨtkuk (Wagmatcook) and was born in 1910. See attached picture provided by Kenny Prosper and taken in the 1970s.]

Anyway, as I grew older, our group, my father’s group started to disappear sort of, fade out, you know? Ko’jua in my family started to fade away after my father died.  So, I stopped dancing completely. I didn’t dance at all because I couldn’t hear anybody singing my kind of music until I learned Sarah Denny was doing Ko’jua. Sometimes I would hear Sarah sing, I felt like dancing to the Ko’jua. I joined in on some of her dances, and I like her singing; I really do, especially the ones where you could dance to Ko’jua because she’s got a really nice voice.

TS        What are the different types of Ko’jua that you are talking about? Is that one term that covers a lot of dances? You said you did one particular type of Ko’jua. Is there any set dance for it?     

JG        I really don’t have a name for my dances. It just explains itself, I guess, when you watch it. The term Ko’jua is just a dance. It’s a traditional dance.

TS        It is traditional? So, it does have specific steps? (JG: Yes) I was just trying to figure out if it was a welcoming dance that anybody could dance.

JG        Yes. The way I dance it is the way that I picked up from Elders that I watched or taught me how to dance. My father taught me one way, and Noel Stevens taught me another way, sort of like a different style, and you will see that after a while when I start dancing.

TS        So you actually have two different styles of Ko’jua?

JG        Yeah.

TS        Were your father and Noel Stevens from different areas or did they just have individual styles that they picked up?

JG        They were good friends and I guess they became friends because of Ko’jua because my father was a chanter and a dancer himself. Wherever he was invited to attend the gatherings or missions where Ko’jua was involved, he would always have Noel with him. Noel would start off…let’s say we have a stage area, there were a lot of people who wanted to do Ko’jua, so my father would get up on the stage with a drum and he’d start chanting, and Noel would be like the starter. He’ll get up on the stage and he’d start to walk around, and he’d start dancing. And, pretty soon, people would see that, and they’d start to join in. And when I was with them, like I would get up with Noel. I used to be shy, like I didn’t want to get up there. I would be forced to go there, but after a while, I wasn’t forced. Nobody would bother me anymore to get me up there. I would do it myself, just by hearing the music. Like, when I was in my teens like, say 15 or 16…Let’s go back to Chapel island. Let’s say Sunday evening or Sunday afternoon we’d have Ko’jua dancing. It would be sort of like competition, who’s going to take it home, who’s going to take the Ko’jua home, sort of like the champion. Whoever would get up there…Now, Noel would start off or somebody would follow him, and I would follow him or stand in crowd and try not to be noticed. But as soon as I heard people hollering at the dancers, “It’s going to Eskasoni (Eskissoqnik); it’s going to Membertou (Maupeltu), or its going to Nyanza (Waqmɨtkuk).” Nobody would mention Whycogamaugh (We’koqma’q). Then that we gave me a feeling to get up there, “I’m going to beat them all.” As soon as I started dancing my style, then I could hear my people from my reserve and even from Eskasoni (Eskissoqnik) where I have a lot of relatives, they would start calling, “Its going to Whycogamagh (We’koqma’q). It’s going to Whycogomagh. (We’koqma’q).” You danced the Ko’jua until you’re just tired out and you can’t dance anymore and I think that’s the way you compete. You started to go out on stage and they can’t dance anymore.

TS        Sort of like endurance, to last longer?  

JG        To last, yeah. Or the best dancer. It be used to be that way—the best dancer will take it home. I hear that a lot. That’s the way I understand it anyway. My father’s chanting was very popular.

TS        Was he an official chanter or the recognised chanter for the tribe?

JG        I would say so because he knew quite a different—how do you call it— chanting style. Is that what you call it? I just call it song or singing. I could never tell you exactly how my father started this; I just grew up with it.

TS        Did he ever talk about how he learned the dance and the chanting?

JG        I can’t remember him talking about it, no. Even though…. my father wasn’t educated at all; he just picked it up, I guess. He was just so interested in the traditional ways of the Mi’kmaq. Like when we used to go to the mission at St Anne’s, he would never bother building a cabin or buying a tent at that time. We used to live in a wikuom, the traditional way of the Mi’kmaq to do a sort of thing like that. But today, now, when you go to mission, we live in campers, Winnebagos; you don’t see no more wikhuoms today, just tents.

It’s a good place to visit in the summertime, the mission. We used to have an old, old church but that burnt so we have a new church now. I don’t really attend much of the missions there anymore. Maybe I should go back. When I was with my parents, we were there a whole week because my father was with the Grand Council and he had to be there to look after the church, the wharfs, and just keep track of things. He was one of the people that looked after missions during St. Anne’s, being a Captain (Keptin) of the Whycogomaugh (We’koqma’q) reserve.

If there was nothing going on in the afternoon, my father would get up on stage and start chanting or he would take us, his family, my brothers and sisters. We used to dress up and all of a sudden, we would just go and start something that day and pretty soon we have a big crowd watching the Ko’jua, and people are starting to…they get into it. So, it’s a whole afternoon around sometimes. Interesting. I never really liked Ko’jua when I was younger cause…my father just wanted me to be a part of this, but I grew into just liking it. I got that feeling, it’s probably is in my blood. I really enjoyed doing it after. I couldn’t stop myself. Even today, when I go to pow wows or gatherings, when I hear these chanters going, I have to get up there and dance. (In a ballroom (?) there were people coming in. There were about 300 people in this room and George Paul, he’s a good chanter from Prince Edward Island. I couldn’t stop myself. I had to get up there and dance.

TS        What makes a good chanter?

JG        I think the voice.

TS        Does every dance have a chant to it that you know?

JG        Mostly today we dance with mostly like the beat; we go along with the beat.

TS        The drum?

JG        Yeah, that’s the way but Ko’jua is sort of like…I don’t know how I would explain it. You’ll just have to see it yourself. Sort of like…It’s a little bit it compares to like step dancing or waltzing. It’s a combination…I don’t know where it originally came from but I picked it up from Noel Stevens. I’ll never forget that man and my father, both of them, they were so interested all the time. Everywhere they went they would do the Ko’jua.

TS        Did you learn it at other places other than the mission?

JG        Oh yes. For instance, the Highland games. My father used to be invited to go to the Highland games and be a part of the Highland games and do Ko’jua. And he would take us along, including Noel, and whoever wanted to join in to do the Ko’jua in front of thousands of people during these games. We used to do concerts. There used to be a concert held in Glendale and we used to go and do the Ko’jua. So, would be to be like what Sarah, Sarah Denny and her Mi’kmaw dancers today do. They get invited all over the place. We used to do that. I remember going back in the 60s. But mostly Ko’jua all happened in Chapel Island, the Chapel Island missions. That’s where it all happens, every time.

TS        Did your mother dance with you?  

JG        Sometimes. Sometimes my mother would get into it but not really. She would be more into square dancing and polka. I seen her dance Ko’jua. You could never get my mother up on stage. She used to have a little bottle with her before she starts. That’s the way some people started out the Ko’jua. I would like to see more people dance Ko’jua. It’s really nice, especially when you have an outfit that’s in a Mi’kmaw traditional style and the way that’s dance, it’s nice. And if you see a group of people, let’s say you have a group of 10 and you have the chanter in the middle, and your dancer—it’s a really nice picture.

TS        Were there other dances other than Ko’jua that you did as well?

JG        You mean like square dancing?

TS        I know that in my reading I’ve come across a number of different times and places.  This is in traditional Mi’kmaw culture, of different dances; war, divorce, dreams, the neskawet was one.  I don’t know, I am just wondering if there were others.

JG        I enjoyed being in pow wows when they danced the welcoming song or the welcoming dance. Now everybody is welcome to join in that dance. And the way they dance it is just…each tribe, I would say, has a different style of dancing. But I used to just follow the way they were dancing. It would be something like the hunting dance or the snake dance.

TS        Did you do that?

JG        No, no. There was this other one, groundhog, it has to do with a hog or groundhog. There’s all sorts of dances I’ve never really knew cause I just started dancing a couple years back to dancing and it wasn’t really Ko’jua that I was dancing. It was a dance that I picked up from other tribes, the way that they danced it and I could see myself, that being a Mi’kmaw, dancing with the Cherokee and the Cree, all other nations or tribes from all over Canada and the United States. I think it would be nice for a Mi’kmaw to come in into these welcoming dances or these, what do they call it, the opening dance or whatever. They should have a Mi’kmaw traditional dancer along with it and try to dance that along to, like Ko’jua style. I’m still practicing on it you know. I just have to get to know the chanters, especially the chanters today, the kind of chanting they do, try to pick out a chant there that would fit in with Ko’jua. I think there is one song.

TS        So there’s a beat and particular words?

JG        Yeah. The one that I like most, it says, “I’m glad that we’re Indians[?].” I think that’s the title of the song. Anyway, it goes faster as it goes along, the beat goes faster. It starts to get you into the mood. That’s how I feel about it anyway. Maybe I should show you what we are talking about here. O.k.?

TS        O.k. [JG changes and begins to dance to a tape of Sarah Denny singing. The next section questions and responses while Joey was dancing.]

JG        [As Joey walks around in circles to I’ko]. You got to get that feeling. I’ve never danced to that one. At the end everyone is supposed to go “Ta Ho!’’

            [JG dances Ko’jua. At end says, “That’s hard!”

TS        If you had bells on, that sort of be snapping, wouldn’t they?  [JG: Yeah. JG does another Ko’jua]

JG        So, what did you think so far?

TS        One woman told me that the women didn’t stomp like the men do. Is that true?

JG        No, they were light, light dancers. (JG catches his breath)

TS        Did they shuffle more?

JG        Yeah. [Continues dancing with next Ko’jua song]

TS        Are the arms always at the sides for all the dances?

JG        Yeah, mostly. There supposed to be. That’s how I was taught.

JG        Jukwa’luk kwe’ji’juow (“Bring your sisters” Joey beckons to bring your sisters.) Bring your sisters. That’s the way I see it causeI have seen Elders in my time (?inaudible “telling other people?”) It doesn’t matter if they are really your sisters, blood sisters and brothers. We are all sisters and brothers. (Speaks in Mi’kmaw beckoning people to join the dance.)

JG        Is that what you wanted to hear?  What I just said.

TS        Yeah, that’s the one.

[Waits for the music to start again, then starts doing what he called the “Brave Dance” that his father showed him.

TS        Is that the one your father showed you?  Remember you were saying Brave Dance. You said about your father used to do the Brave dance.

JG        It was slow, huh?

[Then continues with Ko’jua]

TS        Are the foot movements always pretty much the same?

JG        Yah, I’ll go [shows the foot movements] one, two, three.

[JG talks about doing a slight variation while dancing with other tribes like doing the feather or needle dance that has Ko’jua in it.]

JG        Give me a slow one. (JG walking around as BG looking for the right song.) I don’t think anybody drinking alcohol could do this dance.

[Next dance is I’ko.)

JG        There are supposed to be braves sitting on this side, and braves on this side.  [Then does a gesture like shooting a bow suddenly.]  What I was doing I was trying to have eye contact with all these braves sitting here. This kind of a song, or chant…what’s the difference? Chanting and singing? There’s not much difference.

TS        I don’t know. I was wondering myself.

JG        I would say, hardly any difference between singing and chanting. But, that beat. Follow that beat. Anyone who can follow that beat from the drum, will be a dancer. I think that is mostly the way we dance, is by the beat, and by the chanter. If we don’t have the chanter, we just can’t go by the beat of the drum. I don’t think so. I don’t think I would be able to anyway. Does that explain anything to you?  That’s the way I dance (?)

[JG does another Ko’jua]

JG        That is what I would call the original Ko’jua dancing. [continues with dancing]

            [Break to go outside]

TS        So, Joey, you were talking about three different styles. Were you talking about Noel’s style, your father’s style? There was one where you were actually going backwards.

JG        (inaudible: I was just at ?) but I picked it up from a different variety of dancers. That would be my own style of dancing, which is a combination of all different ways of the Indian dance. I would say that I invented that dance myself. (TS: The backwards one?) Yeah, but you would see in the past that there were some Ko’jua dancers that danced it like that. Maybe that just got to me that dancing backwards a little bit and then go…(JG demonstrates.)

DB      Is that kind of like step dancers doing their own steps? There’s a step dance form and then really good step dancers will invent steps.

JG        Yes. Now that’s a good point right there because each Ko’jua dancer, like myself, they have their own way different way of dancing, and I don’t think many people could follow me the way I dance because it’s pretty hard. Even our own Mi’kmaw dancers, they have their own different way of dancing. I could follow them, but I would have to dance a little more different than they are dancing. Maybe sometime if I would have the chance with the Mi’kmaw dancers, someday I would be invited to be their lead dancer. I would like to see that happen someday. Maybe Sarah would let me do that.

[Slight break in tape] 

JG        It was sort of like an invitational dance, or a greeting dance. It would go something like…[JG sings a short segment and dance starting with I’ko. Then sits down and has a snack.]  So, what are you going to do with all this stuff?

TS        Do you want copies?

JG        Sure, I’ll have copies. Maybe I could use it to teach instead of me dancing and running out of breath. I’ll show the dance instead. (laughter)

TS        It’s interesting to me because I read all these documents and books and accounts of dances. I’ve got stacks of descriptions of dances. (TS shows JG a notebook). There are 125 different descriptions that I have taken out of books of dances in here. So, as you talk, what you are saying starts to fit in to what I’ve been reading.

JG        So, I’ve been a lot of help.

TS        Yes, very much so. I hope you realize that! It’s like fitting in pieces of a puzzle. So, it’s been really good. A lot of dances in there. That is why I was asking you about that dance there, because it made sense to me. I was trying to understand because so many of them were done in circles and that was one that was done in a line, up and down. And, I was trying to fit the chanting and the singing because know a lot of them the descriptions have the chanting and the singing as the person danced, and then the people sitting along the sides would say “Hey” or “Ho” or “Het” and they would chant a syllable and the audience would be participating.

What I used to hear my father say a lot when he was doing that dance, he used to say “HI’ko”. I don’t know really what that means—Hi’ko. And then he would stop and then he would always have a tomahawk and he would grab the head of a brave and try to, or I don’t know… It was just like a play or something like the… It was all in fun. That’s how I remember that dance and when you mentioned it too, it came back to me cause I seen it done so many times. The only one that would do it was my father. I don’t know exactly where he got it. He must have picked it up from his own…the way he was brought up…my grandfather. My grandfather was Joe Gould.

TS        Did you ever see Joe Gould?

JG        No, that’s one of the reasons my name is Joe Gould. That year, my grandfather died and I was born. Yes, Joe Gould, Joseph Gould. Joseph Andrew that’s my real name. Joseph Andrew Gould.

TS        It would be interesting for you to get together with your brother and sister, wouldn’t it?

JG        Yes, I was talking to them about this, you know, and they said if it was possible for us to go to Eskasoni but that’s a two-hour drive. Are you ready to go to Eskasoni?

TS        I would  like to. I am just so short on money myself right now. I’m trying to get financing from my school to get financing for some of the gas and stuff like that. I would love to go

JG        Too bad.

TS        Would you go?

JG        Oh Yes, I would go. Go to my sister’s house. Yeah, I would just call her and tell her that we’re coming.

TS        Would you do it with Sarah Denny too?

JG        If it’s o.k. with Sarah, sure I could dance with her. Maybe that you could set up another date and get Sarah into this too someday.

TS        If she’s not too tired, or busy or something. Because I think it’s wonderful. So, you want to sing for us?

JG        Yes, after I finish my smoke. I’m going to sing you a Christmas song.

[JG sings a Christmas song on his guitar.]

TS        Did you write that?

JG        No! Charlie Pride wrote that song. And I had a hard time with that because of my smoking, I suppose. I’m all worn out, I’ll sleep good tonight.

DB      Do you know that Doc Watson tune, “The Last Thing on Mind?” (JG and DB discuss the song for a moment.)

JG        I know what you’re talking about but that’s a Glenn Campbell song…Gee, I used to sing that song. I used to know 80 songs but now…playing music, I let go for a while, and then I…it’s been about a year, maybe less than a year that I’ve been going back to it. It’s one of my favourite hobbies now, you know, singing. It fills in the gap of what I used to do. Sit in the bar.

JG        (JG sings again.) This one here I sing half in English and half in Mi’kmaw. “Please Daddy don’t get drunk this Christmas…” (This is a John Denver song).  The second part I translated into Mi’kmaw.

DB      Where would you sing that?

JG        I would sing that in a Mi’kmaw community like in a Christmas concert which I will be doing Sunday. Like sort of like a Christmas concert or Christmas Daddies. It’s been delayed. I go down there twice already—they cancelled it. Twice. In Whycocomaugh. It would be on the community channel. I am going to tape it myself. And then, I am going to sing this song “Please Daddy Don’t get Drunk at Christmas.”  First, I’ll sing the whole version in English and then I’ll sing it in Mi’kmaw.

[JG continues singing songs in Mi’kmaw]

JG        Here’s my version of Jukwa’luk kwe’ji’juow.

TS       Do you still write songs?

JG        Oh yes, this was one of my latest ones. I been to all the Reserves. They do…what I’m saying here, is what they are doing is dancing the Ko’jua, but I put it in a way Jukwa’luk kwe’ji’juow,which is part of Ko’jua and I’m saying that everybody’s doing it. They’re doing it in Whycocomagh, they’re doing it in Nyanza, they’re doing it…I should say Nyanza and Whycocomagh in a Mi’kmaw way. Like Whycocomah would be We’koqma’q and Nyanza would be Waqmɨtkuk. I should put that on there.

[JG continues to sing. “This is not Mi’kmaw.” Following the song, Trevor Gould, Joey’s son comes in. They talk about his day, about getting him on video and maybe sing with his father, but he is too shy. JG then sings a song he wrote.

[TS thanks Joey and says it time to get back to Halifax]