The following interview is with Anna Nibby-Woods on January 20, 1991 at the the Mi’Kmaw Heritage Arts Center in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The interview was conducted  by Trudy Sable as part of a Canadian Parks Service, Atlantic Region Traditional Sources Study to document and develop themes relating to Mi’kmaw historical presence in Federal parks throughout the Maritimes. This research was written up in a report entitled Traditional Sources Study and submitted to Canadian Parks Services, Atlantic Region, on February 28, 1992. The archiving of this, and other interviews, was sponsored by the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Center in Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Initiatives Program (2018-2021).

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TS:        This is a broad questionnaire and I know that you have also worked very specifically on programs too, so it doesn’t…(inaudible)… This is just what I’ve used for discussion, just to get…(inaudible)…

AW:     This is going to require some thought.

TS:        It’s a mixture of what I’ve heard and what Parks Canada wanted me to find out. It’s not, I don’t think it’s the “end all” questionnaire.

AW:     No, but I wouldn’t want to, just off the top of my head, answer these questions, because some of them would require some real thought, I think. (Reading questions out loud) “What broad themes about Native American culture and history do you feel are most important to have represented by the Parks system … could be readily incorporated … perceived in Canadian history (laughing)… history of the Maritime provinces…projects of historical significance in Native communities, particularly traditional land use practices that happened at specific park locations.” And I don’t think that Native people really feel any differently towards nature than everybody else. I’m serious. (laughing)

TS:        I have that question in my mind. Well, I just talked to Stephen Augustine. Do you know him from Big Cove?

AW:     No.

TS:        He feels like there is a whole world view of nature (inaudible) traditionally …

AW:     Perhaps some do, but the majority… I mean, I think that’s only a very small fragment of the population. I mean, the reserve that I came from, when I drive through that reserve, there doesn’t seem to be any concern for nature at all, you know. That’s my opinion. And maybe it’s because we’re so close to the urban centers and that sort of thing, that perhaps there was at one time, but I don’t believe that’s true today, not from the area that I was from.

TS:        Millbrook or Shubenacadie?

AW:     Shubenacadie, yeah. When you talk about nature, and you … a person who lives close to nature and they gather their living, and all of those things to keep a person alive from nature, like hunting and fishing, and I don’t know if there are too many of those around either, in 1991.

TS:      That’s a good question.

AW:     We all live in pre-fab homes with forced air heating and running water, and those are all things that are good, but I think that takes everybody so far away from nature. That’s a question that I’d really have to think about.

TS:        Yeah, well, Dan Christmas. I was talking to him about moose-hunting, for instance. Are you familiar with Dan Christmas (from the Union)?

AW:     I’m familiar with all these people, but not on a very you know…

TS:        I’m just sort of throwing out things that different people have said… You know, when it comes to moose–hunting rights, he feels as though the Government doesn’t trust the Mi’kmaw enough, you know, that they’ll take what they need .. that’s their basic philosophy, that they’re not going to kill off the whole moose population just to maximize their own self, that they traditionally they just take what they need.

AW:     What they need.

TS:        So, I’m trying to sort these two things out.

AW:     I can agree with that statement. I know when I was growing up, I never really had meat bought from a store until I was, you know, six, seven, eight years old. We lived on moose and deer and eel and rabbit, and all of those wild animals. So, in that respect … and all we ever took was enough to feed our family, you know. And I learned how to skin rabbits and prepare eel, and all of that stuff from my grandmother. Mind you, I’ve never used that skill since I found a Sobeys. (laughing) Somebody does all that for me! (laughing)

TS:        So, Were you taught a particular attitude toward the animals first. I mean I’ve also heard .. I can read this in history books, but I’ve also heard it from Mi’kmaw…the whole sense of respect, and being equal…

[Interruption from phone call]

AW:     So, if it’s okay with you, I’d like to take this away and answer these questions with a little more thought.

TS:        Sure. That’s great, that’s wonderful.

[Pause, as AW thumbs through questionnaire]

AW:     I think this is a wonderful step, initiative from Parks, the Parks Service.

TS:        They contracted me to do this study, you mean?

AW:     Just the study alone is a real step forward, you know, from previous contact with Parks you know. I don’t even know if Native people were ever even considered in any of their themes or anything. They probably were in a sense, but no input, I don’t think, had ever been asked from the Native community, so this is an excellent step forward.

TS:        Good. I hope it goes somewhere, that’s what I hope. I think so; I think they’re quite serious about it. You know, what I wanted to hear, if you have the time .. I know you worked with Gordon Giffin.

A:     Gord Giffin, yes.

TS:        …at Port Royal in their program. And, if you have time, I’d like to hear about your experience with that. And also, you said you talked with Christine… is that the woman who’s in charge of policy .. is she the one .. ?

AW:     Out of Ottawa?

TS:        Yeah. What’s her name?

AW:     I don’t remember her last name. Doctor Christine something.

TS:        Yeah, because when I first when in to meet about this project, they said that they had the whole policy written up and  that she’d withdrawn it.

AW:    Oh, really?

TS:       … to incorporate more attention to the issues, and then when I heard that you’d been talking to her, I wondered if maybe you had had some influence.

AW:     I don’t know if that had an impact on her retrieving her policy, or if it initiated the policy, but this was early last summer that I had spoken to her. I think what spurred the conversation, or what had got us talking about it was, I had taken a tour of the province, of all the Information Centers that the Department of Culture and Tourism have across the province, and I was really quite shocked to find that there was not one printed word anywhere on Mi’kmaw people. There was lots of information about Germans and Acadians and Gaels and Irish, and all the ethnic groups, and all of the tourist hotspots throughout the province, but there was nothing on reserves or any of the important sites that were important to Native people and that would really benefit the Department of Culture and Tourism. So, I brought that to her attention. And, like I said, I don’t think it’s necessarily completely their fault, but maybe there hasn’t been anyone in the Native community that had been pushing or been representative of the Native community and that sort of thing. And so, I saw it as something that we were lacking and something that should be addressed, and something that would be beneficial to both the province, the parks and the Native communities as a whole, you know, for revenue, but aside from all of that, the Cultural and Heritage side of things which was really lacking, and what I felt was eroded to near extinction. So, it’s something that’s really important and it’s something that we should act on soon, you know. I know a lot of people keep talking about they’re going to do something about it, but I don’t see any evidence of anything being done.

TS :       In the parks, or the Mi’kmaw community?

AW:     In the Mi’kmaw community. (sighs) It’s just such a huge, huge thing. I don’t even know where to start. This is a good start. I’ll answer this questionnaire as honestly and concisely as I can.

TS:        Well, I’m about to visit Port Royal and Fort Anne and talk to a number of people, and I’m just curious what your experience was. Was it last summer that you….

AW:     Last summer.

TS:        … did that program? How did it work from both sides of the coin, from the point of view of Parks and from the Mi’kmaq side?

AW:     I … the people that I had involved in the program, I found that it was so beneficial to them …their communication skills, their confidence-building, just a number of things. But that was only on a real small scale; I only had two people involved and part-way through, one of those people had to drop out, so it ended up that I only had one person in there. But I think it was a real good experience for her, because she came out of the other end with a whole new view of herself. Before, she was shy and retiring and she had no real idea of what her potential was and all of this stuff, and she went into the Habitation and she realized that yes, she could learn all of this historical data and represent it to the public well, and she came out at the other end of it, I think, a different person with this new sense of herself and confidence. And so, it was really good in that respect.    

[phone rings & AW answers]

AW:     Okay, where was I?

TS:        We were talking about that girl who went into the program and came out with a different feeling ..

AW:     Yes, I thought it was a great experience for her, and the end result was excellent. And Parks Canada treated her very well, and they took the time to develop their teaching process and her learning process, and I think the end result was really good. And I also thought it was good to have a Mi’kmaw person representing the history in the Habitation to the general public. So, the idea was a good one. I think it needs a little more work. I’d like to continue it, you know, further. Unfortunately, the way CEIC works, and their funding program with Pathways .. just because of their location, only Bear River can benefit from that.

TS:       I see.

AW:     And maybe something could be worked out where other areas of the province can participate in the Habitation or something like that, because all of the reserves don’t have a place like the Habitation to work with in their local areas, you know. So, these dividing lines for counties or areas of responsibility for CEIC are sort of a drawback.

TS:        Do they (inaudible)say you have to take people from the county ..   but that’s through CEIC?

AW:     Yeah, and that’s how the program was funded last year. Parks didn’t come to me and say, “We have this amount of money for a program; can you find qualified people for it?“ They came… Gord Giffin came to me and said, “Can we put something together, and you go acquire the funding?” So that’s how it worked. The program itself was excellent, but the way we had to go about funding it might want to be looked at, where we could bring in Native people from all across the province to qualify for such a program, rather than just from one little area.

TS:        That seems to be a problem .. well, I don’t know if it’s a problem per se. Parks says they would hire any number of Mi’kmaw, especially if they were qualified. So, there’s Parks criteria for ..

AW:     Employment.

TS:       Yeah, full employment

AW:     But this wasn’t. This was only a training program for X number of weeks

TS:        But, if you were looking at a full time…you know, If you really wanted to get Mi’kmaw into the Parks system…I don’t know how many Mi’kmaw are thinking in that term, of becoming Park interpreters or historians.

AW:     This is all something that should be part of a package that we can start making available to educators throughout the province, that work on reserves and with young Native people .. and say, “Okay. Not only are there careers in the RCMP or in nursing or in law or the medical field, but there’s also this whole other area that hasn’t been even looked at”.

TS:        Yeah.

AW:     And where it is Parks, nature, outdoors, that sort of thing, I think it would fit right in.

TS:        I do too. But, is there someone in the Mi’kmaw community that’s taking that initiative to say to Parks…I know Alex Denny says it would be really good if Parks gave over (inaudible) with employment? That we need these people, or they need to have this kind of qualification, and that kind of thing becomes Parks whether there’s somebody in the Mi’kmaw community that would then take the ball and go out and find those people that would qualify.

AW:     I don’t even know if that’s the right approach: going out to find….What I was suggesting was, before people are ready for the workforce, getting into the education system and guiding people towards that direction, you know.

TS:        But is there a structure that’s set up to do that sort of thing, or is that something that needs to be developed?

AW:     I think that’s something that needs to be developed.

TS:        Sort of like career counseling.

AW:     Career counseling. We also, at the Confederacy, have a Job Equity Officer, who might have some really good input towards that. And we have an Education Officer too, which would have a lot of good input towards something like that. Have you spoken with Don Julien at all, have you?

TS:        Yeah.

AW:     Good. Because, as far as land claims and that sort of stuff, I think he’d be a better one to answer that, than anyone else that I know of.

TS:        So,  did you feel .. so, overall you felt really positive about the whole thing?

AW:     I felt really positive about the whole thing. It was a good experience for the people that were involved. And I got a lot of  feedback from tourists that went through that.

TS:        I had it on my mind to ask (inaudible) that question

AW:     I got a lot of real positive feedback from tourists that had gone through there, because it seems like they make the circuit. They start off at Cape Breton, they go down around Annapolis and back, and they end up, their final stop in their trip is Halifax. And people were coming through here and saying, “Yes, we went through Clements, and we went through the Habitation,”  and the Native exposure that they had gotten there was very positive, and they couldn’t wait to get here to buy something.

TS:        Oh, really!

AW:     Yeah, so that was really good.

TS:        That’s fantastic. So, it really does feed back in.

AW:     It does feed back. Yeah, it does.

TS:        Did they remark about the lack of representation of Native history in other places?

AW:     Well, especially when I took the tour of the province, and I took a lot of product with me and I set up a small booth in each of the centers, and I stayed there for a day or two, and I gave little talks or answered questions or whatever. And at some points, I would have people twelve deep around me, asking questions and just so interested, and, “Where can we find this? And what are Mi’kmaw?”  And you know, the questions. I was totally astounded by the number of people who were interested, but couldn’t find a darn thing out there on anybody, you know, or I mean, on any Native people. So definitely the need was there, the want; but there was nothing to satisfy it. And just that little bit that I went out, and I had a couple hundred posters printed of this thing I took with me, and I took business cards, and just the feedback from that was really positive. And I bet you I got thirty percent response from all of those posters and everything that I passed out. And I went to PEI and I did it. I went to Port Hastings, Pictou Landing,  The only place I didn’t go was Yarmouth because I ran out of time, but I would’ve loved to have gone to Yarmouth and sat there as the people came in off the ferry. Hopefully next summer I’ll have a whole package that I can send out to these places, you know, but as of today, I don’t.

TS:        That would be working with Tourism.

AW:     Yes, that would be working with Tourism, but I think Parks and Tourism have a lot in common, you know.

TS:        Yeah, they do. Except Parks has to be focused on their (main site?). That’s there main thing.

AW:     So what is going to be the end result after all of this data is gathered?

TS:        Well, what I’ve been told is that they will then hopefully develop programs in different .. See, I can’t visit every site. It’s a three month contract, which is very little time, and very little money for travel. So I picked about ten sites, and most of them I’ve visited so far. Some are in New Brunswick and all around Cape Breton, and down to Port Royal.

[phone rings]

AW:     Beverly McGuinness from .. with the Fort Anne Tapestry, and I had helped her organize the first stitches to be put in the tapestry. And that was another real good maneuver .. not maneuver (laughing)… a real good gesture on the part .. And I think Parks Canada is sponsoring that tapestry, and they invited the Mi’kmaw people from Bear River to put the first stitches into it. And since then, we have talked about incorporating not just wool, but a lot of the traditional materials like porcupine quills, birchbark and leather, into the tapestry. So, Joan and Beverly, Joan Waldren from the Museum, myself and Beverly McGuinness are going to sit down and experiment with some of these materials, because it’s never been done in a tapestry form before, as far as we know. And so we’re going to play with quills and bark and leather, and see what kinds of techniques we can develop to get that started. And then we’re going to go down and teach it to the people that are taking a leather course down in Bear River, and have them as a group work on the tapestry.

TS:       Would they do that for all of the tapestry, or just the Mi’kmaw portion?

AW: Just the Mi’kmaw portions within the tapestry, and  I think there are five or seven of those scenes throughout the tapestry.

TS:        You feel good about that tapestry?

AW:     Oh, I think it’s a great idea. It’s such a community building, togetherness type of project, you know, because it’s not one single group doing it. They’re all participating and taking part in it, and to have been invited from the larger community to come in and participate as Native people, that was great, you know. It was a really nice gesture.

TS:        And you feel good about the Native representation on that?

AW:     Yeah, I do. Whoever researched it and developed it, put a lot of work into it, and it’s good. It’s very positive, yeah. An excellent project.

TS:        I know they changed the design a little bit and redesigned some of the design as I remember (inaudible)

AW:     Yeah.

TS:        Anyway, and you asked me about the result of this. What I’ve been told is that they want representation. So, you know, when I talked to my supervisor, he said, “Hopefully, soon.” I mean, you have to go through all the bureaucratic stages when changing anything in any Parks system, but he seemed anxious to make some moves, quickly. And like I said, they (redid those signs in Mi’kmaw?)

AW:     That’s great. Are they going to do something about protecting the petroglyphs at Keji?

TS:        Well, they’re trying to figure out how to do that. You know, it’s a tricky question apparently, you know. On the one hand, you want people to see them. On the other hand, it’s also difficult because they’re so spread all along that coast. I know they’re really pushing to try and do something about that and protect them.

AW:     Because acid rain, I believe, is destroying them, and then vandalism.

TS:        And erosion.

AW:     And erosion, yeah. So, I think something has to be done to preserve them.

TS:       Well, I know they’re making it a priority. I know at least, Peter Hope, who is the chief interpreter down there, is an advocate, feels that something ..

AW:     Something has to be done.

TS:        I have to talk to Peter about exactly what .. steel barriers ..  you know, how do you do that?!

AW:    Encase them or ..   I think it’s a huge problem that I don’t want to have to solve.

TS:        They’re having trouble.          

AW:    But it’s certainly something that has to be done, soon.

TS:        So, I just wanted to get anything that you have about how to go ahead, or questions to ask, or specific things you would like. I know the whole issue of brochures has come up a number of times. Even just written literature that people could take with them, away from the park, in itself would be a big step.

AW:     I don’t know if I mentioned it to you or not, but I have in the works right now a visual Heritage Center that I’m going to be installing here. We’re working on that right now. And it’s going to take the form of a visual because it was an oral history, and it’ll focus on Earth, Family and Spirituality. And hopefully out of that, we will be developing brochures with that visual. It will carry the same visual that we’re going to have here, and at the end of the little cultural center, there’s going to be an information kiosk with written information about pre-contact life, from the Museum and that sort of stuff.

TS:        Where’s that going to be, here?

AW:     It’s going to be here, in the Gallery..

TS:       Who did the oral history? 

AW:     Well, I’ve been working with Ruth Holmes Whitehead at the Museum, because I want it to be as authentic as possible. Let me show you what I’ve done. See, that’s where we were talking about the views of nature. This is where this is coming in.  But this is before European contact so…

TS:       I guess that’s another question. Do Mi’kmaw want to be seen pre-contact or, some Mi’kmaw say show us as we are today.   

AW:     I think there’s a place for both, actually, because we are .. and I know that I’m gonna probably going to get a lot of flack for saying this ..   

TS:        I won’t tell anyone. (laughing)

AW:     .. but we are contemporary 1991 living culture. And there’s a place for that, and there’s a place to re-learn things of the past and keep them sacred, and keep them protected and safe. And then there’s a place for that culture that was under glass type of thing  where you can go back and view it.  So there’s a place for both, I think. Unfortunately, the system, the culture that we live in is so strong, it has kind of pushed out and pushed away the culture that we all think we should be living in, you know. And this is going to be…[looking through art designs].

[AW and TS talking about how cold the room is.]       

I contracted an artist. I sat down with him and told him what my vision was. And he went away and put this together for me and brought it back, and we’ve been working on it, back and forth like that. This was the original concept, and it focused on Earth, Family and Spirituality, and it tells a story. When you come in through the front of it .. and this is going to go around three walls; you come in, and you’re introduced to the people in the forest. And then you come through this way, and this is the Spirituality side of it and figures changing, spirits changing, you know, that sort of thing. And then when I looked at this, I thought gee, I really wanted more focus on the people. So he went away and came up with this again, which brought the people up closer to you, with the wilderness in the back. And we’re missing a part here ..       

TS:        He’s playing a flute.

AW:     He is playing a flute.

TS:        I haven’t seen that much written … (inaudible)…

AW:     Well, this is only the preliminary sketches, and this is what I took to Ruth and said, ”Tell me what’s wrong, and tell me what’s right in here. Tell me what I can change”, and that sort of thing. So she went away and made notes, and she told me the hunter would not carry the game back to the campsite. He would take out the heart and some particular organs, and that’s what he would bring back. And he would send his wife or the women of the village back to where the kill was, and then they would butcher it and bring back the skin and the meat and that sort of thing. And a hunter would never ever carry rabbits. He would not .. this would be this young fella’s job to do, right? And the dog is wrong; the dogs didn’t look like this back then. The costuming had to be worked on …the moccasins. So we’ve gone away and gathered all of that information, and now we’re re- ..  It’s going to take the same form, except the specifics will be more authentic. Like, the cradle board isn’t right, so that’ll have to be fixed. You’d never put this type of ornamentation on a wigwam. Fish wasn’t smoked in this manner. All of this activity would never happen to where the Shaman was doing his thing, and he’d never be bare-armed.

TS:        Yeah, he’d have a robe on.

AW:     Yeah, he’d have his ceremonial robe on, and that sort of thing. So this is going to take the form of a mural, and these people are going to be in relief off of the background. All of this is hand-illustrated in black and white, and the people that we’re focusing on will be in colour; all of their ornamentation and clothing will be in colour, so that that’s a subliminal message for the crafts center also. And underneath each of these, or beside each of these things that are in relief, which are life-size, there will be an encased artifact of something in relation to whatever is going on above it.

TS:      I know I read one description of where they were going out to get the hunt, that they were singing and dancing… (inaudible)…

AW     Well yeah, it would be a celebration, because this is life-sustaining, so..

TS:       I never did hear (inaudible) You haven’t run into that yet?

AW:     Yes, according to Ruth, there were instruments. I don’t know if it would take this form or not, but there were different types of musical instruments that were being used. But you know, we have to have a place to start, you know.

TS:       It’s beautiful.

AW:     I said, “I don’t know”, so let’s do what we think it might’ve looked like. And then we’ll take it to somebody who can tell us if we’re right or wrong, and which direction we should be going. What we’re going to have here, instead of this woman working on pottery, because the archaeological evidence for pottery isn’t that great, you know, so this Elder is going to be teaching a few children the game of Waltes. And the baby isn’t going to be just leaning up there like that, because you know,  the dog could run by and knock it over, so that’ll be more closely looked at. Instead of salmon or this type of fish, we’re going to have eel being smoked. And pottery would never be fired like that; it would be under the ground, so that’s going to be changed. And this is .. he’s going to be moved way back, into the background. And there doesn’t seem to be a lot of evidence here of water, and from what we understand, Mi’kmaw lived near or very near rivers or the ocean, so this is going to be opened up and there’s going to be more water in there. But this is one piece that will be turned into a brochure, carrying the final image that we approve. And on the back of it there will be written information about pre-contact life, or as much as we know about it. And then maybe there might even be a segment on contemporary life, you know. I’m also looking at developing a map of the province, pin-pointing all the different reserves and writing a story about famous or historical things that happened with people from that reserve, you know, and its relationship to Nova Scotia history.

TS:       You know, Parks is interested in that too. They’ve asked me to ask who Mi’kmaw would want to see commemorated, or what site, particularly. Do you have any sense of that, or is that something you…

AW:     It’s something I’m still, it’s still something that I’m getting into slowly, you know. I’ve only been back here for a year. And so, between running Native Arts and Crafts in the Province, and  developing the Gallery and managing this place, and I sit on twelve different committees, there’s a whole lot of things that I have on the go, but this is one of them that is really important and one of my priorities.

TS:        Will it be an audio visual, or just a visual display?

AW:   This will be just a visual display. But at the end of the display, there will be an information portion of it that people can take away with them, a hard copy.

TS:        I would think this would be something that Parks would want.

AW:     I would think so.

TS:        I mean, is this something for instance that you’d like me to mention, that this is being developed, that this is a place to go ..

AW:     Yes. I have .. The only reason I mentioned subliminal advertising with it, is because the only way I could get it funded was through Aboriginal Business Development program and it had to come under a marketing scheme because they’re not into culture and that sort of thing. So I had to sort of bastardize my vision to find the funding for it, right?

TS:        But this is exactly the type of thing Parks could have for all their centers …

AW:     Yeah, it’s going to be gorgeous. I have all the schematics done and everything. If you’re interested, I can get them back from my designer, and you can take a look at them.

TS:        Oh, that’s wonderful. I just got excited because you’re doing this. I saw you had Roger Simon’s work back there, and I saw some of his work when I was up in New Brunswick. Pat Allen, the archaeologist from New Brunswick, and they’ve commissioned Roger to do big paintings based on their archaeological work at the Red Bank Site. And they’re really beautiful pieces, what he took to be traditional Mi’kmaw…

AW:     Yeah, I love Roger’s work

TS:        Yeah, I think he’s got such a rich…

AW:     Talented, talented man.

TS:        Yeah, both of them, Luke and Roger… (inaudible)… because Luke apparently had done some interpretive program at Kouchibouguac Park one summer, slides, stories,… (inaudible)… again…one summer

AW:     Canada 125^th, I’ve got a meeting later on this week. I have another idea that is just starting to gel in my mind now. It’s on a much larger scale, but it would encompass a cultural center …

[Break in tape]

… a little poster that is going to be $60,000. This is a complex, it’s a huge thing, and we think this might be a real good place to start, where you turn the sod and that sort of thing. But it would be a cultural center and it would have workshops inside where traditional art and craft could be taught, a Native Studies program could be developed, a living museum type thing could be part of it. It could generate employment for Native people all across the province, and it wouldn’t be seasonal, it would be something that would be open all-year round. It would, like I said, have a museum part to it, and it would have the Cultural Heritage Center and a school type environment, but it’s only just a thought right now. I’m still working ..

TS:       You came in, the last meeting we were at together, we were doing our wish list. I have for fifteen years, wanted to develop a Cultural Center, and when we were doing that wish list, I said I want to do a cultural center. And then you came in afterwards and said you wanted a cultural center (laughing). Everybody else is always thinking of (uncertain name) which I think is a good springboard project, but I keep thinking, let’s have a Cultural Center. I always think of children, always. Same idea. You have displays, but then you have hands on working, living , sort of experiential workshops…

AW:    This could even be developed further into some sort of economic base with the living museum type idea, where you could give tours and hands-on classes, that sort of thing. And if you wanted to, you could even take it further, where you could have a hotel and restaurant complex. And I just see it as endless potential, you know.

TS:        Are you thinking for just Mi’kmaw because I… or?

AW:     Yeah, I was thinking just Mi’kmaw. Yeah.

TS:       Yeah, maybe so. I think in terms of if we took the Heritage Arts Group and brought it to an ultimate fruition, we could do that. That’s what I have always thought about, representing all the different heritages.   

AW:     I think that’s a wonderful idea, but on the other hand, I think that Mi’kmaw culture and heritage has been so ignored, that they need something of their own. This has to be totally Mi’kmaw.

TS:        You know Candace Stevenson? She came to our class the other day. She said that she would love to see a Mi’kmaw Museum or a Native History Museum developed. They do have that Museum Assistance Program too. She was ready and willing whenever…

AW:     Great. I think that the opportunity is there. I think that we have, or we’re beginning to get, a lot of people back into the Native community that had gone away, gained experience and knowledge, and now they’re starting to come back. And I think now’s the time to start something like this, because we have the expertise, we have the knowledge and the vision. I know, I have! (laughing)

TS:        Well, I’ve really felt the difference over the last two years. I’ve been doing research on Mi’kmaw dance and hopefully I’ll be working with Joel Denny on the research that I’ve done.  But just in the last two years, I’ve noticed a big difference in attitude among Mi’kmaw, toward education, just wanting to get educated and get back, just so they can teach their own history.

AW:     Up until just a couple years ago, it was difficult to find a Native person who would even want to admit they were Native, particularly here in Atlantic Canada. And there are a lot of good reasons for that. I know what my reasons were. And I think it’s time that we said, “That’s enough. I’m not going to…Yes, history is history, and we were treated badly in the past, but it’s time to stand up and say, ‘That’s enough. We’re not gonna take it no more, and we’re intelligent, skilled people, and we deserve something better than that.” So, that’s the reason I came back. I was comfortable out there in the corporate world, earning a real good salary, a nice prestigious job.

TS:        What were you doing?

AW:     I was working in public relations and advertising, and I had been for seventeen years; worked my way up through all of these little you know, bottom jobs and eventually ended up in middle management in a nice big company.

TS:       In the States, or ?

AW:     No, Corporate Communications, here in Halifax. This job of coordinating Native Arts and Crafts in the province was offered to me and at first I refused it. I said, “No, thank you. I don’t want to work with Natives, I don’t want to get involved with them.” And then I thought about it for a long time, and I said, “Maybe it’s time I went back and gave something to the Native community that … Maybe they don’t need me, but I’m going to come back and offer what I have, and hopefully I’ll be able to do something about a lot of the wrongs that have been done over all the years, you know. “ So that’s what I’m doing back here. I’m working for a lot less money, I’m putting in more hours and the stress is a little higher, you know, but I don’t mind it because I think I’m making some changes.

TS:        I think you are, too. Just in the presence here, you know. It’s really astounding .. just the artists that have come out, and the clothing …

AW:     Yeah. At first I was a little concerned that I may not have enough product to meet the demand and that sort of thing, but the artists are starting to come out of the woodwork, you know. They’re bringing their work in and they’re proud to have it hanging in a Mi’kmaw gallery.  So that’s one step, or that’s one thing that they didn’t have a year ago, that I brought to the community, you know, and hopefully I can build the structure so that it can run without me, you know. I want to build it so that it can look after itself, so I can move on to something else.

TS:        And give training to the people, and they can take over.

AW:     Exactly. And the economic base that the Gallery is creating, not just in one community like Shubenacadie, but it’s all over. You know, I have producers from Newfoundland, from all over New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and parts of Maine even, coming in and bringing their work. And it sells, it’s quality work, and it does sell. So, that’s something that they didn’t have a year ago, that I can feel really good about, you know.

TS:       I find in my research on Mi’kmaw dance, it’s like history is still living. It’s amazing to me just with dance. For instance,  I’ve found so much about dance that’s still alive and still remembered, and still being revitalized or rediscovered. And there’s a lot out there.

AW:     That’s so good for me to hear, because my experience had been… my grandmother was so Catholic and she had so many memories of things that we should have, that should have been recorded, but unfortunately she was so … No, no, that’s the wrong word. It wasn’t unfortunate, because she was happy and content with her choices. But those choices restricted her in sharing her memories of the olden days, you know, with dance and chanting and ceremonies and traditional religions and that sort of thing, because she was taught that that was savage and that was pagan or whatever, and  so that was pushed to the very back of her memory; And she didn’t want to share those things because she believed that the Roman Catholic way was the right way, and a lot of those things that she was taught were bad, and you don’t learn or you don’t pass these things on, because they’re wrong. So that’s the unfortunate part for me, because I want to learn those things and so now those are things that are gone and vanished; because she’s dead and there’s no way of retrieving any of that stuff. So it’s good to hear that there are still fragments out there. And so, by me knowing that, that generates hope and faith within me to continue, and find those and record all of those things before they are gone.

TS:       Yeah, yeah.

AW     Yeah, Excellent.

TS:        Well I hope Joel works with me. He said he is going to send me information and I’m going to send him all my information because  he has Sarah (Denny) as a connecting link to all that tradition

AW:     Great

TS:        So, some of the younger generation are sort of now going back to the older generation and trying to pick up…

AW:     Yeah, because there’s a consciousness growing amongst the younger people, and that’s good, because like I said, a few years ago, there wasn’t. And I think that’s what you’re noticing.    It’s a new awareness, it’s a new pride, a new self-confidence that’s coming about; that’s what you’re noticing. I don’t know where it started or where it came from, but that doesn’t matter. It’s happening, so that’s good.

TS:        Yeah. There’s all sorts of things. I probably shouldn’t take up anymore of your time, though. Are there people…I’m going down there to (talk to?) members of the Bear River Band reserve. Are there other bands I should make contact with as well, or people in Bear River I should try and find out?

AW:     Well, you know Chief Frank Meuse?

TS:        Well, I’m trying to get hold of him, but I haven’t met him. That was my problem.

AW:     Are you trying to speak with all the Chiefs?

TS:        I can’t speak with all the Chiefs. I wish I could. I’ve made an efforts to speak with a number of them. Some have met me but some haven’t, but I just talked to Alex Denny and Chief Johnston at Chapel Island, Chief Ward up in Red Bank, members of the Union,Don Julien and Danny Paul, you know. I’m making my best effort to talk to as many as I can.

AW:     I would think that you’d be making a real good connection if you spoke with Rita Smith from Horton.

TS:        Okay. And who’s she?

AW:     Rita Smith, she’s an Elder. She’s a wonderful lady. She is probably the best basket maker we have in the province. Just her sense of the Valley area, because she’s lived there all her life. She’s seen all the changes that have gone on.    And she’s developed her craft to the point where it’s classed as an art. Both her and her husband .. he prepared her splints, and this was a way of life.

TS:        Are they the ones in Kwanute?

AW:     I don’t know.

TS:        What was her husband’s name?

AW:     Noel.

TS        There was a couple in there. I’m trying to remember their names.  

AW:     That was Shirley Bear and Peter Claire.

TS:        No, no, they were doing baskets.   

AW:     Yeah, Peter Claire was. I don’t know if Rita Smith is in that film. I don’t  think she is. But I think that would be one person to speak to, because I think her perspective on the past sixty years might have some sort of impact. And her son, Eugene Smith, too, who is … Now that would be a question for him to answer, on nature.

(phone rings. AW answers:  “Mi’kmaq Heritage Gallery”.)

TS:        Do you have her number, Rita’s?

AW     Yeah, I do. Probably.

TS:       Is she the type of .. if I call her up and explain what I’m doing, will she .. ?

AW:     Yeah, she’s very receptive. Rita Smith, 684-9236.

[AW & TS discussing how cold the room is]

TS:       And Eugene is her son?

AW:     M-hm. And her husband is Noel, and she is in Horton

TS:        Okay. I probably should also contact the Chief of that band. I have a list at home, if you can’t remember.

AW:     I think it’s Chief Peters.

TS:        Okay. That would be good, because it works well. Sometimes the Chief doesn’t know that much, or sometimes they do. And they can refer me to someone else. It’s good to have both.

AW:     Actually, Rita used to be Chief of Horton Reserve, so.. And then we have a new Chief in Afton.

TS:        Oh, you do? I was up there a couple years ago.

AW:     This is a young fellow. He’s contemporary, but he follows a lot of the traditional ways, and he would be good to talk to. His name is Kerry Prosper.

TS:        I was up there, filming Joey Gould dancing because he used to dance a lot, when he was a young boy. Do you know Joey?

AW:     No.

TS:         have to get some video tapes from Joey.

AW:     Someone else who might have a lot of input is Joan Prosper, and she works for Dr. Christmas, and she is at the MACS.. 

TS:       She was at that meeting.

AW:    Yes.

TS:       We talked a little bit.

AW:     Yeah. I don’t know if you want to pursue that. As far as your research goes, you might want to ask her, have specific questions to ask her or she might have something that’s not connected with the Heritage Arts group, so she might be one you want to talk to.

TS:        I should call Peter Christmas. I haven’t called him yet. I know I should.

AW:     Yes. I would make it a definite thing to talk to Peter Christmas.

TS:       What about the Native Council? 

AW:     Who could you speak to on Native Council ..

TS:        I feel as though I should ..

AW:    Yeah, you should.

TS:        Who’s the president of that…is Dwight Dorey.  If you can’t speak with Dwight, talk I guess, with Roger Hunka. Roger Hunka’s not Native.

TS:       Sounds good. Well, if you think of anything else ..

AW     Yeah, I’m going to go through this, and answer these questions to the best of my ability but not without a lot of thought.

TS:        That’s wonderful.

End of tape