Translation and transliteration of terms into the Smith/Francis orthography: Kenny Prosper

Transcription assistance: Tammy Williams

Introduction:

The following interview is with Dr. Margaret Johnson, a.k.a. Doctor Granny, about all aspects of basketmaking including Mi’kmaw words and phrases referring to the parts of the basket, the wood and plants used, and the tools needed. It was conducted by Trudy Sable at Dr. Granny’s home in Eskassoqnik (Eskasoni) First Nation, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia on June 25th,1995.  This research was done as part of Sable’s Master’s thesis on Indigenous knowledge and creating a cross-cultural science curriculum for Mi’kmaw students entitled, Another Look In the Mirror: Research into the Development of a Cross Cultural Science Curriculum for Mi’kmaw Students (1996).  Sponsorship for the archiving of this and other interviews was through the Mi’kmaw Native Friendship Centre in Halifax, Nova Scotia with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage, Aboriginal Language Initiatives Program, 2018-2021.

TS: Margaret Johnson on June 25th, 1995, Eskasoni Reserve talking about how she made baskets, and what type of wood she would use, and the words in Mi’kmaw or the different parts in Mi’kmaw that would go into making the baskets.

MJ:       First thing, you got to go in the woods, then select the wood. You got to find the right kind of wood that you could use for baskets. You’ve got to cut the chip off, then, then split it and then dry it, and see if it’s brickly. If it’s brickly, just leave it. If it…if the grain is too wide, leave it, and if the grain is too close together, then you got to leave it.  You’ve got to find the grain that you…certain width, not too thick and not too thin because you’ve got to shave it and then you, after you shave it, then it’s thinner. So um, some grain that you could split in two; some grain you don’t have to split it, it’s just right, thick, right thickness. So, by the time…sometimes you’ve got to go three, four hours to look for the right kind of wood and you’ve got to select another one if this tree’s no good, try to find another one that there’s no limbs, and…

TS:        Straight.

MJ:       Straight, no limbs, maybe from the ground up to about eight feet, and then you cut it down and up about eight feet, that’s your eight feet of the splints.  But you’ve got to make sure that you find a tree that it’s not brickly, it’s not too—the grain is not too thick, grain is not too thin, close together, because you couldn’t use that, it—it would break anyway, and you couldn’t shave it because the next one’s so close and you cut it, uh?  So, after you select that after you find the wood, then um… split it in half, in quarters, then take the heart from these quarters about, maybe half an inch.

TS:        The heart?

MJ:       The heart inside, you know, in the middle part. Take that off and that part is no good—you throw it away. Then the rest, the tough part, you split it again.  Then you cut the planks with the draw knife. You got to sit out on this horse bench, then you take a draw knife and cut the planks; I want to make sure they’re all even.  If you put…they want them one inch, but you couldn’t uh, maybe more than one inch, you’ve got to make sure that you’ve got them straight with the draw knife.

And then after you’ve cut all those planks even and square, or whatever, then you take an axe on the other side, not the blade side, but you’ll be cutting them all up, you’ve got to pound them, and pound every inch. You know that axe is about, little bit more than one inch wide behind so you turn your axe over and pound every inch of your…you’ve got to put it on a, on a hard wood block, put your stick on a hard wood block, then you pound every inch. You move your stick and move every inch and then pound it this way and then start back again. You pound about a couple times, then you turn your plank over.  Then pound the same thing as the other side, pound it all the way back, then, maybe twice or just find out if it’s, uh, getting, uh, a little bit of loose, huh? You’ve got to twist it and make sure it’s all pounded through. If it’s not pounded through, then you pound it again one more time on each side. Then try it. How do you say this?

TS:       Twisting?

MJ:       Twisting it.

TS:       Yeah.

MJ:       If the splints are loose, then you put it on the edge of your block like this.  Uh, how would I say it because nobody can see me, huh? At the edge of the block, and then hit it, hit it. down.

TS:        Off the block.

MJ:       Yeah

TS:        How much?

MJ:        Oh maybe, a couple inch.

TS:       Like, so it overhangs a couple of inches and then you hit it down?

MJ:       Yeah, overhangs, yeah.

TS:        Bend it over the edge?

MJ:       Yeah, bend it over.  And when you hit it, and when that bends over, the splints would all come out like that huh?  How do you say it?

TS:        Splinters sort of, or like splaying out?

MJ:       They all come out like one-two-three-four-five

TS:        Like a fan kind of…

MJ:       Yeah or like a ji’kmaqn.

TS:        Yeah, yeah

MJ:       And then you uh, do that all along…  (Phone ringing in background)

TS:        Do you need to get that?

 (Tape cuts out and back in.)

MJ:      Where were we?

TS:       Ah, you were talking about splints, you know.

MJ:       Splints, yeah how they come out like…

TS:       A fan sort of.

MJ:       Ji’kmaqn

TS:        Yeah.

MJ:       You know what ji’kmaqn is.  Anyway, then after you, after they all pounded down or beated on… the ways that you um, make-make them open up, then take the stick, whatever you finish, and just break it in half at the end, and then break another one in half, quarters, and then you pick all the splints off.  After you take all the splints off, you take a crooked knife and lay a canvas on your um, on one side of your uh…

TS:        Leg, thigh?

MJ:       Thigh, is that thigh, or leg or whatever, oh, just up below your knee, put the canvas up, down below huh?

TS:       Yeah

MJ:       (chuckles) What’d you call it?

TS:       Your thigh.

MJ:       Oh, got to put the canvas, then take the crooked knife, it has to be nice and sharp, then you put, one lay, one split down on your, and then you pull the splint, hold your knife down on this ugh, splint, pull it, pull it until it’s all finished one side.  Then you turn it over again, then you shave down the other side with your crooked knife and after it’s all shaved and nice and smooth, then you can uh, take the end  of one end, but make sure it’s not the butt of it; make sure it’s the top end, because if you want to split it, you got to split it at the end of the top part.

TS:       How can you tell?

MJ:       You can tell because the top part is little bit thinner than the bottom part. (Mi’kmaw words) how would I say that?

TS:       Where it’s thinner?

MJ:        Yeah

TS:       Narrower?

MJ:       Yeah it uh…

TS:       Thinner like from side to side or…?

MJ:       From lengthwise. The top part is thinner, and the bottom part is a little bit thicker. So, you split to cut them

TS:       This way but not this way, right? It’s thicker, see what I mean?

MJ:       They’re lengthwise

TS:       Lengthwise.

MJ:       Well take the, you know, after you shave the splint, this is the splint, you got to shave all that first, of this side is little bit thinner. And then after you shave all this, both sides, and if you want to split it, this split right here, this right here. If you split if from here, thicker apart, you won’t be able to split it; it will go this way and break, you know?  It will break off if you start from here, it will, you know, you’ve got to have a… and if you want to split, you’ve got to have a splitter, wood shaped like this.  I couldn’t explain it but you understand what I mean—it’s like this.  And then you put your splint through, and then that, the top part of your splint is split already, like this.  So, take one side with one hand, and another part on the other hand, then pull until you finish splitting, split it all the way. Then, it’s ready. Then, you do another one, you do another one. By the time you get maybe twenty splints for the bottom, and maybe you need another fifteen for the top to fill the basket, you need about forty splints, huh? Maybe, uh, 10, 20, 30 about 34-35—34. Never put five when you uh, never put three, five, or seven—you’ve got to have even numbers, when you put it in.  After you make the bottom you’ve got to bend, bend all that edge up, and make sure your splints are on the right side.  If your splints are smoother on top, you use the smooth side when you lay them on the bottom; when you make the bottom of your basket, make sure your splints are all on the good side, not the uh, the bad side.  You know the bottom part, you’ve got the use it on the split side; the top part you can use on the top part.  You know after you split it, you’ve got to know how to lay those splints to make sure.  After you make a bottom, you’ve got to wet it all around, make sure they won’t break.

TS:       Wet it?  With water.

MJ:       Wet it.  Just wet, wet the splints around the edge, and then bend them up.  After you bend them up, then you take a strip and go all around, every second splint, you pick.  The next round, you’ve got to pass, you’ve got to pass two splints to go over, and then start, and when you come back again here, you pass this one and go over, from under—they go under the basket.

TS:       Under-over-under-over like first…

MJ:       And when you come to here, next time again, take this one and go over two more, huh?  So that, you can use ten feet or eight feet long of strip, and go round and round and round, but every time you hit this place, you’ve got to, or you split one splint so you don’t have to go over.  If you split one splint, start here, and then so when you come here it will go this way here, see?  So, they’ll all be ugh, even.

TS:       Are there different names for the splints that go up and the ones that go over in Mi’kmaw?

MJ:       Yeah these are ribs, the standing up.

TS:       The what?

MJ:       The ribs.

TS:       But in Mi’kmaw, is there a word for that?

MJ:       Oh, gee that’s um, the bottom, from the bottom, and the ribs, it’s elqnatekapi’l. It’s a hard word. It’s elqnatekapi’l, all those splints are elqnatekapi’l, the bottom ones.

(Margaret Johnson spelling and sounding out the word as Trudy tries to write and pronounce it.)

TS:       That’s the bottom?

MJ:       That’s the bottom part of the splints?

TS:       Like the ones that come under the basket, like this, that come up from the bottom?

MJ:       Yeah, yeah that’s the bottom.  It’s a damn stubborn (?)  (Trudy laughs) And then there’s some people, they call them ribs, after you bend them up, bend them, take them. And the one that you go around, is lisknuaqann.  Take lisknuaqann, and pick every second one when you start, you don’t… Lisknuaqann that’s what we call the one that goes, I wouldn’t know…

            (Trudy Sable and Margaret Johnson trying to say the word together)

MJ:       Lisknuaqann. Anyway, you’ll get it.  (Trudy and Margaret laugh) Then after you fill the ribs, you put about maybe, if you want to uh…if you use narrow splints, maybe you’d take twenty, but if you use about maybe for the new splints, you might use about ten or twelve. But never put nine or eleven, always make sure you put eight, or ten, you know, even…

TS:       Why?

MJ:       Because when you bend it, you’ve got to bend this splint and it would be on top of your bottom, so when you pull that splint, you make sure you pull the bottom two, so it’s all, it all goes closer here, but if you pull the other one then your um…if they’re not even, this one, if you pull and the other one won’t go through. You know, this one will be down and the other one will be up, around the edge of your basket on the bottom.  So that’s why, you got to make sure it’s that even number, eight or ten, don’t put nine or eleven, you know.  After you’ve put it in, and now you’ve got to dry your basket for maybe two-three hours; you can make another one while you’re waiting for this other one to dry.  When it’s all dry, you can see the splints are all loose, and then you’ve got to push every splint down.  How’d you say it?  Push all the splints all around, make sure it’s nice and tight, and when you push it down, take about two splints, pull them down, then go around and around until you got all the splints down.

TS        (inaudible)

MJ:       Yeah, make sure they’re all down, nice and tight, then you take water and you wet that all around the edge of your basket, wet it, and then cut your splints after-after you cut them, you cut them about two inches on top of, from your uh…

TS:       The ones sticking up on top?

MJ:       Yeah, make sure you cut the top ones, every second one, the ones that you’re going to bend, because if you cut the wrong one, you won’t be able to keep your other, other ones down. So, make sure you cut every second one, the top part of your you know, lisknuaqann. Lisknuaqann is the end of your, lisknuaqann is like that.  So, you take these top ones, and cut them about two inch from the basket edge…whatcha call it?

TS:       Make it even you, mean?

MJ:       No, cut it in, shape like uh, like this.  You know?

TS:       Pointed?

MJ:       Pointed. Not in the middle but you cut it sideways like this.

TS:       Oh angled?

MJ:       Angled, yeah. Is that right angled?

TS:       Like, like that?

MJ:       Yeah. So, when you bend this one, because the others will be like this, and this one and then another one, another splint and you’ve got to cut it again, like this. So this is the edge of your splints, huh? This is the top part, and this is the top part, so this one is under, this one is under.  Anyway, you pull, pull it up, every second one after it’s soaked a little bit, then bend it down and push it in, inside maybe second splint, around inside, push it in, then another one, another one until you go all around. Then they cut the top ones off; these have to be cut, these here. C-U-T. (claps hands) After take the scissors and cut that off.

Alright, now your top part is all clear, nothing sticking up, the splints are bent inside, and the ones that—every second one—you’ve got to cut it, and then, now you’ve got to make a hoop. You’ve got to make a hoop that will fit there. You know how you measure, how you measure to make sure that it goes over like this?

TS:       No.

MJ:       You’ve got to, take your stick after you make um, take a stick and measure it this way.  See that’s one, two, and three, and then half.

TS:       So, one full stick length?

MJ:       No, three full stick lengths. See, one…

TS:       Across the top of the basket?

MJ:       Yeah across in the middle, one-two-three (TS: and a half) and the hoop, the (inaudible) after you measure it, you put three lengthwise, then measure half.

TS:       So, three and a half lengths of the stick across the top, right?

MJ:      Yeah- yeah

TS:       From the edge to edge of the basket, the radius of the…

MJ:       So, the top one, you’ve got to cut it flat. When you, when you um…how’d you say it?  When you bend this hoop and uh…

TS:       The overlay you mean? Where they meet?

MJ:       Yeah, where they meet, astua’tu’n.

TS:       They overlap?

MJ:       Overlap, yeah, astua’tu’n. And then, after you put…you make your hoop, just fit it right on top of your basket, and hold it there and then tie it so that it won’t come off, huh? Then, make the handle. Now you’ve got to make another

TS:       What is the piece?  I am sorry, Margaret.      

MJ:       This is the hoop.

TS:       What is the hoop called in Mi’kmaw?

MJ:       Lokwistaqn.  (Margaret spells and sounds it out as Trudytries  to spell it out)  I use ‘a’.  I use different… lokwistaqn

TS:      Is that the word Bernie was asking about yesterday?

MJ:       Lokwistaqn?  No, laqpa’taqan.

TS:       What was that?

MJ:      Laqpa’taqan is the binder

TS:       So, the handle or the binder?

MJ:       After you put the handle, that’s the, we got the lokwistaqn around the basket.  Now you’ve got to put the handle, apjun; we call it apjun.

            (Margaret and Trudy are sounding and spelling it out)

MJ:       Yeah just say it a little faster, and not slow *laughing* not aaaaaapjuuunn. Say apjun!

TS:       Apjun!  (Laughing)

MJ:       That’s right. Say it faster, then you can say it.  Apjun. And lokwistaqn… handle is apjun; that’s the handle—apjun, handle.  And this part is lokwistaqn

TS:       Lokwistaqn

MJ:       Yeah, then after you put the apjun, the handle, you get the nice long splint, maybe three or four three-four feet long, and make sure it’s nice and uh, not rough or anything, make sure it’s even at both edges.  Not too, not too wide, maybe um, not quarter inch, about half quarter

TS:       An eighth?

MJ:       One eighth.

TS:       Smaller than a quarter inch?

MJ:       Yeah

TS:      An eighth?

MJ:       Yeah, a quarter inch is too wide.

MJ:       Next is about…next is about, this wide.  See?  This is a quarter and you know… this is a quarter.  This is smaller than a quarter.  So, then you’ve got to make sure your one end of your splint is pointed like this.  Um, cut it in this shape.

TS:       In a point?

MJ:       Yeah. Then when you put it on your…

TS:       What is the word for this?

MJ:       Apjun?

TS:       No

MJ:       Lokwistaqn?

TS:       No, this one, that we’re doing now.

 MJ:      Laqpa’taqan. That’s the one that Bernie would be…

(Margaret  spelling and sounding out the word as Trudy tries to write and pronounce it. Laughter)

MJ:       You got it.

TS:       Was that right?

MJ:       Laqpa’taqan, yeah

TS:       That’s the binding —

MJ:       That’s the binder, laqpa’taqan. Now, you’ve got to, when you start the laqpa’taqan, when you start your binder, this splints here, this is the top part of your basket, the one that went inside. You put your splint in between here, see, put your splint between here, make sure that the…sometimes you’ve got to take a sharp knife, flat at the end, and stick it in here, and um, make sure you come all the way and you’ve got that much left at the end.  Then stick it through here, through this one, through this splint, and bring it here, and then bend it back and go back on top.

Then when you pull this one, this part, pull it hard, and this edge will go inside on top of your bottom, elqnatekapi’l, your rib, one of your rib wherever you start—make sure you start the top, top splint that you bend inside. Because when you put that in, and when you come back and pull this one, this splint that’s come back it could stay inside, so even bull (?) couldn’t pull that splint; it stays so hard in there. And when you pull it tight, then you go, you know, you’ve got to go this way, and if you’re left hander- you left, if you’re a right hander you go next one between these two, you go in here again, yeah, see?  And then you pull your, string, whatever the binder,

TS:       Laqpa’taqan

MJ:      Laqpa’taqan, and pull it up and then you’ve got to put something on top to cover these.  So you cover, you put sweet grass…you can put sweet grass or you can put a splint, same size as the top one.

TS:        You call that laqpa’taqan?

MJ:       Laqpa’taqan. then you’ve got to, cover these on top, so it won’t be rough.  Before you bind it, you put another splint on top, to bind it over.

TS:       So, you bind the binding?  Is that what you’re saying?

MJ:       Yeah.

TS:       Is that both called laqpa’taqan?

MJ:       No, it’s not laqpa’taqan.  It’s the um, it’s another splint that goes on top of your edge, your basket. it’s um…

TS:       It goes on top of the one you already did, right? Laqpa’taqan.

MJ:       Yeah

TS:       You already did that

MJ:       Your laqpa’taqan is loose.

TS:       Alright

MJ:     But the other one, it goes, it goes…you know this is your basket, this is your hoop, and the one that comes up around top, it’s got to be the same length as the top splint, so that you cover the rough parts up, the ones you cut with the scissors, every second one, the ones you bend like these, that-that will put the splint all around on top, make sure it goes around until where you start the bottom.

TS:       Mmhm, what does that one do?

MJ:       It’s just a splint, it’s just lipkete’knapi, any kind of lipkete’knapi.  Lipkete’knapi is a splint.

            (Margaret Johnson spelling and sounding out the word as Trudy tries to write and pronounce it. Laughter)

MJ:       It’s an awful hard word. Lipkete’knapi.

TS:       Lipkete’knapi. Any kind of splint, right?

MJ:       Yeah, any kind of splint. Make sure you cut the same width as the top of your basket.  You know, if it’s a quarter of an inch, make sure your quarter of an inch on top of your head.  So you lay it down on top and bind that over with the hoop and your basket, so that’ll stay clear and cover of all that roughness on top of your basket.  Or, you can put sweetgrass to cover that on top, like a… like a, I’ll show you this basket here.

See this is the top, and this is the laqpa’taqan, the way they bind it.  This is the apjun. And see the rough parts that they were bent in, they’re all covered with this top one. It’s all in one.

TS:       Where’s the hoop? The lokwistaqn? Which one’s the lokwistaqn?

MJ:       Laqpa’taqan?

TS:       No, the hoop.

MJ:       This is the hoop inside.  

TS:       Okay so you’ve got an outside, okay.

MJ:       Inside the hoop, you already have that, and it’s got to be good. It’s got to, you’ve got to cut it, make sure it’s same width as the top, and then, you measure it three and a half right across, the length, lengthwise. And when you, when you make a hoop, it fits right in.  Then you tie it here and there. Then you put the hoop, after you put the hoop, then you’ve got to, you got to make sure you put notches on your hoop—this is the way the hoop is, and this here, see the notch, and that goes in, this one goes in here, and you bend, just measure. Like this one is about…when you measure it, measure it and then bend it.  Bend the hoop, about maybe four-five inch, depends on how much you want it up, your hoop.  It would be higher; you could have longer, and then another one here. something like that, huh?

TS:       What are these notches for?

MJ:       So, this hoop goes in the notches, so your uh, even if you lift it up, the notches holds the hoop.

TS:       You mean the notches hold the handle?

MJ:       Yeah.

TS:       Alright, that’s for the handle, to hold the handle into the hoop when you put the…

MJ:       Yeah.

TS:       So that’s on the side of the…Oh, I see.

MJ:       Right across the middle.

TS:       Right in here, right here you’d notch it?

MJ:       Yeah.

TS:       Where the handle would meet the hoop? Okay.

MJ:       Yeah, yeah.  You notch it… well this one is glued on, no notch there, but when you notch it, it’s got to be thicker, see about this thick.  Then you cut this and, about here and here, and make a notch, then it-it’s shaped like this and when you..

TS:       Yeah, do you notch the handle too when you put it in or not?

MJ:       Just the handle, just where the hoop is that’s the only place you notch it. Then you bend it about…when you bend you could use your fingers or your two thumbs. And then this, about here, bend it like this, and then on the other side again, same length so you could use your hands, just the same, bend it here with your thumbs, then over here, bend it here, and that makes it round, the handle on top.  I even got tired, this so hard to make baskets, nobody knows how hard it is, and there’s so much work. Yeah, even if you make a six-inches around, or two-inches a size, or a clothes basket, it’s all the same. Yeah.

TS:       How long would it take you? Usually.

MJ:       The start from uh… it would take me about 10-12 hours to make one. By the time you go into the woods, select the wood, and split the wood, cut the planks, after you cut the planks, you sit down, separate and pound them, after you pound them separate them, after you separate them you sit down with the canvas on one side of  your leg, then take a crooked knife and shave all that splints. After you make enough to make a basket, you need to go, 20-25 splints, and then if you want the fancy one, if you want that jikɨtjij in the middle of your basket.

            (Trudy and Margaret saying the word together)

MJ:       Jikɨtjij.  Those are the fancy ones.  Some of them they call them uh, how did they call those…?

TS:       Periwinkles?

MJ:       Periwinkles, and uh…

TS:       Is that what jikɨtjij is?

MJ:       Jikɨtjij, yeah. That’s the fancy uh, periwinkles.

            (Margaret is helping to sound out and spell the word for Trudy)

MJ:       Say it faster.  (Trudy says it faster).  Yeah, the periwinkle or there’s another different type diamond ones.  There’s another jikɨtjij they call a porcupine, the sharp ones.  Yeah, like you twist them, you know, and go inside like that.

TS:       Are they all called jikɨtjij?

MJ:       All jikɨtjij but they’re different shapes.  There’s um. I think four different shapes of jikɨtjij that you can put on the basket.  And then, after you put the binder, after you put all that binder all around, your basket is finished.  Now you are going to put the jikɨtjij— that’s the last part of it. That’s the end of your basket, your basket is made. You know that size one time we used to get only 10 cents after 10 hours of work, huh?

TS:       What kind of wood is it?

MJ:       Uh, the white maple, you can split it by hand, and white ash, you found it just the same as black ash.

TS:       And what would you use, white or black ash?

MJ:       You can use both if you want to. White ash is white, black ash is brownish.

TS:       How do you say, what would you call it in Mi’kmaw?  White Maple?

MJ:       White maple is kmu’ji’japi.

            (Margaret is helping to sound out and spell the word for Trudy)

MJ:       Kmu’j. It’s a wood.  Kmu’j is a wood.  Kmu’ji’japi.

TS:       Okay, and white ash would be?

MJ:       Um, wape’k aqɨnmoq.  White ash. Wabe’k is white.

            (Margaret is helping to sound out and spell the word for Trudy)

TS:       Alright, and black ash?

MJ:       Is uh, wisqoq. (Margaret and Trudy sound it out together) Yeah, you said it.

TS:       And now, I’m running out.

MJ:       Running out?

TS:       Is there…uh

MJ:       Another one.

TS:       Is there a word in Mi’kmaw for the uh, the specific type of ash you’re looking for, you know, that grain?   Remember you said it had to be just the right width?  I think you once described it like the width of a butter knife.  Didn’t you once tell me about that width, the grain when you’re going out looking for ash

MJ:       Yeah, about the thickness of a bread-knife.

TS:       Yeah, is there a word for that particular type of, you know, an ash that’s perfect for making crafts, instead of any wood?

MJ:       Well the thickness is tel pase’k but um, well um, what will I say in Micmac (Mi’kmaw)? When you pick the grain for the basket, for the right kind of a basket, you don’t pick any too or too thick or too thin. If you want to split it, ugh, it makes it more beautiful when you make jikɨtjij because that smooth side, both sides, both ways of the splint, it’s wider and smoother, and you don’t have to shave that part after you split it. So, you can use that side when you make jikɨtjij or when you make fancy baskets.

MJ:       But it’s got to be about, thickness as a samqwaluk bread knife is samqwaluk

TS:       But is there a word for that particular type of wood, just that right width you know, the perfect wood for a splint.

MJ:       Lipkete’knapi is a splint.

TS:       But that could be any wood, right? Any splint?

MJ:       Yeah, but it’s got to be thick as a breadknife—tel pase’k kutey samqwaluk— samqwaluk that’s the bread knife. That’s the thickness as the samqwaluk.

(Note: tel pase’k kutey samqwaluk was translated by Kenny Prosper as “it is the thickness of a butter knife.”)

TS:       The grain of it, right?

MJ:       Yeah. Yeah, and you can split that with your splitter.  But thinner, you won’t be able to split it.

TS:       Just a few more questions. What would the draw blade, you know, the blade you used to draw?

MJ:       Draw knife?

TS:       Draw knife be called?

MJ:       Um.  Waqa’qnikn. Waqa’qnikn is a crooked knife.  

            (Margaret pronounces word for Trudy)

TS:       Waqa’qnikn. That’s the crooked knife? Okay

MJ:       Yeah. Lapeso’qn is the gauge that you used to cut the smaller splints in the small, tiny, width.

TS:       Oh, that thing you used, you put it through…

MJ:       Put the splint through and hold it down, then pull it… lapeso’qn.

            (Margaret and Trudy trying to say the word together)

MJ:       How do you say “whun”?

TS:       H-A?

            (Margaret and Trudy trying to say the word together)

MJ:       You can hear them, lapeso’qn.

TS:       Yeah. Now the draw knife that….?

MJ:       I just had it a minute ago….

             (Tape cuts out and back in).

TS:       Draw blade.  What was it before you cut the tree you take a chip to test it you mean?

MJ:       Yeah. Take the chip about six inches long, then you split it, how did we say it?  Wejipkete’t.

            (Margaret helps Trudy pronounce and spell Wejipkete’t)

MJ:       Wejipkete’t. That’s trying the chip first before you cut the tree down.  And see if it’s wrinkly, if it’s uh, kaqjet.  Kaqjet I think they calls it like— some wood in-between.  There’s something like burned brown stuff in-between, and that, you couldn’t shave it off, you couldn’t split it, it will break. And that’s what they call that kaqjet.

         (Margaret helps Trudy pronounce and spell kaqjet)

TS:       Like between the grain, right?

MJ:       Yeah.  Sometimes you find it hard, it’s a brown, like burnt wood huh?  But it’s like a rock.  Draw a knife, how far did we get to draw knife?  That’s mikutaqn.  Where’s mikutaqn?  Right there. And there’s mikutaqn.

TS:       What’s that?

MJ:       Mikutawemkewey. Mikutaqn is a knife.

TS:       A draw knife?

MJ:       Yeah, and mikutawemkewey is a (?) knife but you use it for cutting.

TS:       What was mikutawemk?

MJ:    Mikutawemk is when you cut the shavings off the plank, make sure it is even on both sides.

(Note: Kenny Prosper defines mikutawemk as “the act of cutting off to prepare the wood or plank to make sure it is even on both sides.”)

TS:       And what was mikutawemkewey?

MJ:       That’s knife, mikutawemkewey

TS:       I’m trying to see what the difference is between Mikutaqn and…

MJ:       Mikutaqn is knife, and mikutawemkewey is just the same.

TS:       O.k. the same. Oh, I know what it was, it was wejipkete’t when you’re trying to get a chip, before you cut the tree, you get a chip.

MJ:       You’ve got to cut the chip off. Wejipkete’t, cut the chip off.

TS:       That’s to test it, to see if it’s the right…?

MJ       Yeah. You’ve got to cut your, use your knife, your axe, and cut  little pieces of chips off, pieces of wood.  And then dry these little pieces. What kind of grain? If it’s wrinkly, if it’s kaqjet or if the grain is too big or too wide. Kaqjet is burned inside like between the grain; it’s kind of brown, hard stuff in the middle. Would you believe what’s all in the wood?

TS:       (slight laugh) No.

MJ:      Now you didn’t know there was…it stuck together so hard, you couldn’t take it off, you couldn’t take it apart, and you couldn’t shave it off; it stays on, it might pull (?) one side but the other part stays on. It is green. It’s something that grows between the grain.

TS:       Is that kaqjet?

MJ:       That’s kaqjet. What do you got up there?

            (Trudy spells out what she wrote)

MJ:       I think the top one was alright.

TS:       Kaqjet?

MJ:       Kaqjet, yeah.

TS:       Alright, so that makes it really hard and also doesn’t split apart because…

MJ:       Yeah, yeah. And if it’s too thin, then you couldn’t split it at all, it goes here and this way.

TS:       What’s that called, I want to see.

MJ:       The grain, so close together, and almost sticks right on.  That’s finer grain.  Um, pepkikuat

MJ:       You know the grain is so thin, pepkikuat.  You couldn’t shave it, you cut it any way (?) and it’s brickly when the grain is so close together, it breaks right off.  You couldn’t bend it (?)

TS:       It’s so amazing when you really start, you know, break it down into little bits, of what you use, and the different…that’s what I was trying to understand, like what it was you see, and what you were looking for in the wood, in the tree, what words you use in Mi’kmaw)…that’s what I’m trying to understand.

MJ:       And ugh, you know, if, if I didn’t see it, if I didn’t know, if I didn’t see it, I wouldn’t know. And if I didn’t, I wouldn’t know it if I didn’t learn from the other people about the wood, huh?  Like Ralph, my son, he knows all about that, just the same as if you cut a…there’s another thing, they call it “spongey”.  The wood is spongey; it’s like a rubber. You couldn’t split it, you couldn’t cut it.  Well you can cut it with the saw, but you couldn’t split it.  And then even if you could split it, you couldn’t cut it without, with a draw knife, you know?  Like poplar or even white maple sometimes, it’s spongey and it’s like rubber; you couldn’t split, cut it.

TS:       What would that be called?

MJ:       Spongey, it’s ugh, something like a rubber.  It’s (inaudible) I don’t know how you’d call it rubber in Mi’kmaw.

TS:       But if you saw that wood yourself, you’d know what to say, “That wood is –“

MJ:       It’s no good because you couldn’t use it anyways. No matter, if you couldn’t cut it with a knife, you couldn’t cut it—you can cut it with the saw, cut the log, but you couldn’t…you might be able to split it, but if you dry it, it’s so spongey; they call it spongey, it’s like a hard rubber.

TS:       And in Mi’kmaw what would you say?

MJ:       Jesus, I don’t know how you call rubber in Mi’kmaw. This is one thing I never heard.  I’d say (Mi’kmaw word could not be translated), “No good, no good, no good for nothing.” You couldn’t use it for nothing.  (Mi’kmaw word could not be translated).  You couldn’t use it for nothing, it’s no good (Mi’kmaw word, could not be translated).  Spongey, just a little, spongey. It’s like a rubber, a hard rubber. There is wood like that. Yeah, and there is wood, you just touch it and it breaks. That’s brickly.

TS:       Is that pepkikuat?

MJ:       Pepkikuat is the grain close to each other so, so close… pepkikuat

TS:       I thought that was the brittle, is that not the brittle?

MJ:       Well it’s brittle, there’s some wood it’s brittle without pepkikuat, and it could be brittle if the grain is big or grain is…but there’s a wood there, it’s brittle, all the way.

TS:       What would that be called?

MJ:       Kakikk

            (Margaret helps Trudy pronounce and spell Kakikk)

MJ:       Kakikk.  Brickly. 

TS:       Brittle

MJ:       Brittle or yeah, break.

TS:       So, you mean it breaks easily?

MJ:       Yeah. That’s brittle?

TS:       Breaks easily.

MJ:       That’s brittle?